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03:09 PM on 08/17/12 
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undonesweater93
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It's hard for me to comprehend how one can disagree with the bolded. The idea that one group is somehow excused from or, worse, justified, for holding racist views based off of their position in society is disgusting to me. Especially when someone is willing to say that violent behavior toward another group in society is okay because of the indirect oppression of the former group by the latter.

Well it's really common for white people to derail and make false equivalencies, but those who do this aren't really convinced by this idea that racism is prejudice + power
03:36 PM on 08/17/12 
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Nuns On A Bus
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Well it's really common for white people to derail and make false equivalencies, but those who do this aren't really convinced by this idea that racism is prejudice + power

Can you expand on what you're saying here? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
11:08 PM on 08/17/12 
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undonesweater93
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encouraging the idea that black-on-white discrimination is race could lead to a lot of white people derailing real claims of racial discrimination by saying "well a bunch of people called me whitey once. it happens to everyone, get over it." or something to that degree.
02:37 AM on 08/18/12 
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EasySkankin
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I was only asking you a question and giving a hypothetical example of what I was talking about because you sounded like you assumed there was never a case like that (which I now know isn't your assumption), that's all. Like I said, I don't have the numbers (which would be nigh impossible to compile anyway since we're talking about people's thoughts). If black people commit more crimes than white people I don't think it's because of police injustice (though that may be and likely is a factor in some areas), I think it has more to do with how society is skewed on the whole.

I would agree it is a cultural issue, not an institutional one. The problem is that culture is not something easily quantifiable, or malleable.

Stumbled across this post and it sort of touches on the cultural aspect that I'm talking about/trying to understand. If any black members have reactions I'm curious to know.

link

Quote:
When you are young, black and male, you have several unfortunate inheritances converging at once. There is the myopia of youth, the inability to understand how much you have to lose. It's very hard to imagine that you may be risking, say, your chance to go to Provenše because you don't even know what it's like to want to go to Provenše. And you live around people who, generally, don't know either--even if they're adults. On top of that you come from a people who for most of American history have not been able to secure the safety of their own bodies. This is not so much said, as it lingers in the air around you. The result is that even if you are not out in The Street, it's very hard for none of The Street to live in you.

The essay it references is Definitely worth a read if you have the time.
06:18 AM on 08/18/12 
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notauser
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Because I'm considered Metis (a status of Native), during my divorce my ex-wifes lawyer wanted to test me for Fetal Alcohol Disease to try and say that I could potentially become an Alcoholic and danger to my child based on the high instance of it within Native culture. I'm Vegan and don't even drink... this was the most racist thing I ever experienced in my life.
10:35 AM on 08/21/12 
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suicidesaints
A Million F@$% Diamonds
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Has anyone read this thing?

http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/
01:16 PM on 08/21/12 
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suicidesaints
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33 views and not a single comment?
02:39 PM on 08/21/12 
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Takk...Ros
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In fairness "has anyone read this thing?" is not a great conversation starter especially if nobody has. Are you posting this because you fear or believe in the new world order? Or that this is in some way connected to the Georgia guide stones?
02:47 PM on 08/21/12 
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suicidesaints
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In fairness "has anyone read this thing?" is not a great conversation starter especially if nobody has. Are you posting this because you fear or believe in the new world order? Or that this is in some way connected to the Georgia guide stones?

You're right. I didn't spark a lot of conversation with only saying "Has anyone read this?" but I didn't express my views on the subject yet, because I wanted to get a fair and balanced discussion going, rather than have people dissect my viewpoints right away.

I guess I should rephrase the question and say...

"What are your thoughts on this?" or "Do you think this document is necessary?" etc.

I'm just looking for thoughts on Agenda 21.
03:04 PM on 08/21/12 
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Takk...Ros
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You're right. I didn't spark a lot of conversation with only saying "Has anyone read this?" but I didn't express my views on the subject yet, because I wanted to get a fair and balanced discussion going, rather than have people dissect my viewpoints right away.

I guess I should rephrase the question and say...

"What are your thoughts on this?" or "Do you think this document is necessary?" etc.

I'm just looking for thoughts on Agenda 21.
Ok. Well, I haven't read it in it's entirety. I just now read the Rio Declaration and the Sustainable Management of Forests. It all sounds pretty good to me, but I don't think anyone is really doing anything about it. The reason I asked about NWO and the like is because I used to date a guy who freaked out about all this saying they were going to use agenda 21 as a way to control us and would eventually thin down the population and put us into camps. Dude was wrong in my opinion because none of this is a) legally binding or b) happening. Do you see any countries really working towards environmental sustainability? Eliminating the gap between the rich and the poor? Getting indigenous people and women involved in decision making processes? Helping underdeveloped countries figure out how to responsibly manage their forests? Also there is a decent bit of emphasis on nation's individual sovereignty in the literature I just read so I'm thinking this is all much ado about nothing.

Now, what are you thoughts on this?
04:03 PM on 08/21/12 
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suicidesaints
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Ok. Well, I haven't read it in it's entirety. I just now read the Rio Declaration and the Sustainable Management of Forests. It all sounds pretty good to me, but I don't think anyone is really doing anything about it. The reason I asked about NWO and the like is because I used to date a guy who freaked out about all this saying they were going to use agenda 21 as a way to control us and would eventually thin down the population and put us into camps. Dude was wrong in my opinion because none of this is a) legally binding or b) happening. Do you see any countries really working towards environmental sustainability? Eliminating the gap between the rich and the poor? Getting indigenous people and women involved in decision making processes? Helping underdeveloped countries figure out how to responsibly manage their forests? Also there is a decent bit of emphasis on nation's individual sovereignty in the literature I just read so I'm thinking this is all much ado about nothing.

Now, what are you thoughts on this?

I haven't read the entire document yet, so I don't want to jump to any conclusions right away, which is part of the reason I started the thread by asking "Has anyone read this?"

I've heard certain things about it, but I like I said, without reading it, I'm trying not to form an opinion. I have however seen some things that make me believe that it is being implemented.

Do you have any reason to believe that "none of this is happening"?

Also why do you associate this with NWO? Did your ex try to connect the two?
Aside from whatever your ex said about this, have you ever heard about or looked into NWO or Agenda 21?

I'm just interested in finding out more about this document and a few others that are similar to it.
04:41 PM on 08/21/12 
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Takk...Ros
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I haven't read the entire document yet, so I don't want to jump to any conclusions right away, which is part of the reason I started the thread by asking "Has anyone read this?"

I've heard certain things about it, but I like I said, without reading it, I'm trying not to form an opinion. I have however seen some things that make me believe that it is being implemented.

Do you have any reason to believe that "none of this is happening"?

Also why do you associate this with NWO? Did your ex try to connect the two?
Aside from whatever your ex said about this, have you ever heard about or looked into NWO or Agenda 21?

I'm just interested in finding out more about this document and a few others that are similar to it.
For the bolded, I already mentioned it. I don't see anyone making real strides towards environmental sustainability besides some lip service to renewable energy. I don't see anyone in power trying to solve the wage gap. Women, minorities, and indigenous people are routinely and consistently left out or ignored when it comes to ANY kind of policy making. I'm curious about what you've seen that's being implemented?

I also don't see what would be wrong if these things WERE being put into action. There's nothing in the Rio Declaration or the sustaining forest thing (which is all I took the time to read) that I find problematic, in fact, these are the kinds of things I would love to see countries adopting. I'm all about the environment and income equality.

My ex did connect the two, but he also believed in every conspiracy theory ever in the history of the world. I haven't looked into it a whole lot, but from what I can tell it's a very silly belief held by overly paranoid people.
05:05 PM on 08/21/12 
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suicidesaints
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For the bolded, I already mentioned it. I don't see anyone making real strides towards environmental sustainability besides some lip service to renewable energy. I don't see anyone in power trying to solve the wage gap. Women, minorities, and indigenous people are routinely and consistently left out or ignored when it comes to ANY kind of policy making. I'm curious about what you've seen that's being implemented?

I also don't see what would be wrong if these things WERE being put into action. There's nothing in the Rio Declaration or the sustaining forest thing (which is all I took the time to read) that I find problematic, in fact, these are the kinds of things I would love to see countries adopting. I'm all about the environment and income equality.

My ex did connect the two, but he also believed in every conspiracy theory ever in the history of the world. I haven't looked into it a whole lot, but from what I can tell it's a very silly belief held by overly paranoid people.

As far as believing in EVERY conspiracy theory ever, I will agree that is for overly paranoid people. I do believe in SOME conspiracy theories, but I think that a lot of people draw conclusions about one thing, and then another, and the think they can put all the pieces of the puzzle into place. There are some pieces that I think fit, and others that do not.

As far as THIS document in particular goes, I've only HEARD about some of the things in it, so it's pure speculation at this point. I too am in favor of "sustainable development" however from what I've HEARD the document's definition of this is far different than what you and me would think of when we hear the words, "sustainable development"

Like I said, I don't know what the document actually says, because I haven't read it yet, but I have reason to believe that the document is being implemented because I've seen evidence that supports that it's being implemented....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_...of_Agenda_ 21
from the wikipedia page alone, you can see that it is not a law, as you stated, but it can, and has been implemented voluntarily.

http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/dsd_sd21st..._Synthesis.pdf
from the UN's own documents, implementation plans

http://sovereignty.net/p/sd/agenda21rpt.htm
http://thenewamerican.com/tech/envir...-uns-agenda-21
http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/agenda-21...ot-conspiracy/
just a few more sites with some interesting information

The main problem that I see with the document (and again I emphasize, I still have only read small parts of it) is that it's been implemented without ever being brought before Congress.
05:41 PM on 08/21/12 
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Love As Arson
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I still can't believe that so many people in this thread actually accept LAA's whole "racism requires the racist party to be a member of a group that has power in society" thing, as if that excuses or justifies racism of minorities against whoever is deemed "in power". It blows my mind that anyone who has actually spent time around members of other races/groups could come to this conclusion.

So,in your mind, a slave in the antebellum south who hates white people is espousing the same ideological platform as the slave-owner? You would say that the deficit in power between the two is meaningless, that the relations which enshrine the owner's position is irrelevant - all that we can say is they are both racist. If that is the case, then the term racism is conceptually useless and we should just use the term mutual dislike or something; because we clearly have no use for specificity, analysis or the broader socio-historical underpinnings of race relations.
05:57 PM on 08/21/12 
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Nuns On A Bus
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So,in your mind, a slave in the antebellum south who hates white people is espousing the same ideological platform as the slave-owner? You would say that the deficit in power between the two is meaningless, that the relations which enshrine the owner's position is irrelevant - all that we can say is they are both racist. If that is the case, then the term racism is conceptually useless and we should just use the term mutual dislike or something; because we clearly have no use for specificity, analysis or the broader socio-historical underpinnings of race relations.

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. I would say that the deficit in power changes it for sure: certainly part of the situation for the slave would be the fact that he's getting screwed over. But I would say that a generalized hatred of all white people everywhere is still racism, in my mind. Certainly a much more justified racism than the reverse, but racism nonetheless. I don't see how using racism to describe different situations makes the term useless in any way.
 



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