[a nice person]

Competitive capitalism has "outlived its usefulness"? It's Marxism that fails in practice and in theory. I can't think of an ideology as unscientific as Marxism.

[jawstheme]

Originally Posted by a nice person

Competitive capitalism has "outlived its usefulness"? It's Marxism that fails in practice and in theory. I can't think of an ideology as unscientific as Marxism.

Marxism hasn't been practiced so...

And that's partly because of extreme pressures from powerful capitalist countries (USA) every time its been close to being tried.

And what does unscientific even mean in this case?

[a nice person]

Marx's 10 Points...

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6.Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Many, if not all, of these ideas have been implemented in various societies. Technically, laissez-faire capitalism hasn't been fully practiced either.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by a nice person

Competitive capitalism has "outlived its usefulness"?

I'd say around the time of the Civil War ended. It was at that point that capital actually became regressive.

[SmeezyBeezy]

Originally Posted by Love As Arson

the quality or state of being inane: as
a : lack of substance : emptiness
b : vapid, pointless, or fatuous character

So basically what my post was? Oops.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by a nice person

Marx's 10 Points...

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6.Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Many, if not all, of these ideas have been implemented in various societies. Technically, laissez-faire capitalism hasn't been fully practiced either.

Most people do not understand the nuances of Marx's thought. Those ten points were conditional, the condition being that the working-class had taken over the state and the means of production.

[Zeran]

Originally Posted by birdman

Capitalism works, it has brought more people out of real poverty than any other country in the world, it has ushered in a golden age of communication and technology, and it has built great things.

It isn't perfect, but it's the best system there is.

i'd argue that most of the great things that have come with capitalism, i.e., bringing people out of poverty, giving them a decent and dignified life, etc., have been the result of the social democratic socio-political movement.


also, i still have yet to really wrap my head around why communists (and libertarians) are so super for/against private property the way they are.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by Zeran

i'd argue that most of the great things that have come with capitalism, i.e., bringing people out of poverty, giving them a decent and dignified life, etc., have been the result of the social democratic socio-political movement.


also, i still have yet to really wrap my head around why communists (and libertarians) are so super for/against private property the way they are.

Communists mean the means of production when they say private property, not your ipod or car.
I

[Zeran]

Originally Posted by Love As Arson

Communists mean the means of production when they say private property, not your ipod or car.
I

haven't places like cuba made owning your own apartment or house illegal though? that doesn't seem like the means of production.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by Zeran

haven't places like cuba made owning your own apartment or house illegal though? that doesn't seem like the means of production.

I wouldn't use Cuba as a model for communism. It was only after the US showed hostility to the revolution that they declared themselves communist.

Edit: And, really, unless someone lived in a palatial home, which was imposing on the surrounding neighborhoods, it doesn't make sense to socialize one's home. Now we should socialize housing in the sense of ensuring everyone has one, but that does not mean their home isn't theirs.

[Zeran]

well, regardless of whether cuba is actually communist (i know they're not), they did abolish private property using communism as a rationale - which i just don't really understand. the point about the means of production, guaranteeing housing, etc. makes complete sense though.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by Zeran

well, regardless of whether cuba is actually communist (i know they're not), they did abolish private property using communism as a rationale - which i just don't really understand.

Being that the Cuban revolution was nationalist in its social character, nationalization of the various means of production was a necessary step in extricating themselves from the colonial relations that had existed for so long; however, as in the case of the USSR, the mode of production built after this was not oriented towards an entirely new system, but essentially transforming the state into one large corporate entity. Rather than production incorporating the plurality of worker's interest, it was turned into a unitary form of production to sustain the state and the bureaucratic class.

[Lee Maddox]

Originally Posted by SmeezyBeezy

Communism doesn't work, I think history has proved that.

History hasn't proved that Communism doesn't work... It HAS proved however that any model when corrupted by power hungry elites is not a valid proving ground for it's own ideals.

Communism/Socialism IS gaining ground and peacefully and benignly succeeding across Latin America today, among other places..

[SmeezyBeezy]

Originally Posted by Lee Maddox

History hasn't proved that Communism doesn't work... It HAS proved however that any model when corrupted by power hungry elites is not a valid proving ground for it's own ideals.

Communism/Socialism IS gaining ground and peacefully and benignly succeeding across Latin America today, among other places..

Think you missed the boat on this thread, but okay. It's also not working in other countries. China still has a lot to to accomplish before I would even consider it close to being a healthy model of communism "working".

[Lee Maddox]

Originally Posted by SmeezyBeezy

Think you missed the boat on this thread, but okay. It's also not working in other countries. China still has a lot to to accomplish before I would even consider it close to being a healthy model of communism "working".

I would certainly agree with you about China which historically is a prime example of what I was saying about authoritarian power hungry elite corrupting the Communist ideals. As far as current day China is concerned it's difficult to quantify since it has has become some kind of bastardization of Capitalism married to the old authoritarian regime. It is certainly not an example of Communist theory in practice.