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01:06 PM on 04/11/14 
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deanster321
BLEGH
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Birmingham, UK
Male - 22 Years Old
Semi-related, I'm reading Wonder Woman Unbound: the Curious History of the World's Most Famous Heroine, and the guy who created Wonder Woman, William Marston, had pretty different views on sex than most others of the time:



Anyway it's a good read if you're into pop culture/comics/history/gender.
Think I heard about this before, thanks for bringing it to my attention again though. I'll probably look into it next time I need something new to read.
01:51 PM on 04/11/14 
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Keri
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I am all for sex positivity, but I would never go so far to label all intercourse as rape. That takes it way, way too far. Just because I'd want to give a partner pleasure via intercourse, doesn't mean I am submissive.
03:11 PM on 04/11/14 
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Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
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The Motherland
Male - 29 Years Old
I didn't mean to imply that men are the ones driving empowerment through feminism. I meant that feminism is about realizing inner strength in spite of existing power dynamics.

The "all PIV is rape" concept implies that women are powerless against the existing social and sexual dynamics between men and women. While, at the same time, relegating all sexually active heterosexual males to rapist status and all sexually active heterosexual women to vicitm status.l Which, in my opinion, spits in the face of feminism.
I mean, I don't think you, nor I, can actually define feminism in any meaningful way. Suffice to say, I do not think it is about inner-strength in the sense I take you to mean, which is a DYI understanding that says the woman, as an individual, should succeed and the others can do as they wish; rather, feminism, as it's been explained to me, is about understanding the strength of women and turning that strength on patriarchal structures so as to create true equality. To your last paragraph, I think many people are getting caught up in this idea that rape = sex when that wasn't what was being argued. The argument is more nuanced than that. I will quote my earlier post:

Quote:
[There isn't a one to one comparison between sex and rape within this framework; rather, the argument is there's a continuity between sex and rape. Too often, when we think about sex, we think about in an idealized state, as something abstract and ahistorical. What is being argued is that sex, in this era, is a historical production and the way in which it is constituted in a given era refers to the dominant social structures,i.e., capitalism, patriarchy and white supremacy. The continuity between rape and sex lies within these lines of power, isofar as these people with an identity that has been historically produced, as "women", "men", "trans", "queer", fall along a grid to which value, privilege, recognition, legitimacy, opportunity, is ascribed accordingly; some groups accumulated power over the others for quite some time, with explicit disparities in their interactions with the others and therein lies the issue, because when we say that rape is about power and we think about consent, we do not think about the subtle flows of power that compose our society and how those flows have essentially eroded a basis for affirmative consent.

This does not make the woman into a victim, it is an analysis that tries to understand the historicity of sex, of coupling, of gendered oppression in relation to consent and so on. Just as an example that the aforementioned journal uses, sex now is different from how it existed in the era prior to sedimentary society. Why is this the case? Because we understand that it signified something so much different than it does in a hierarchical society. That is the point, I believe, they are making: We must know sex, historically, and if we do, and we understand the nuances of power, power which is present at the moment of socialization into gender roles and normal behaviours, then we can say that consent isn't as rigorous a concept as we believe it to be in a heternormative society. I know, for you, history is a dirty word and unimportant in terms of individual will, but I would ask that you read some of the essays that are posted in the LIES Journal and then respond, because they articulate it far better than I could.
03:12 PM on 04/11/14 
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Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
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The Motherland
Male - 29 Years Old
I am all for sex positivity, but I would never go so far to label all intercourse as rape. That takes it way, way too far. Just because I'd want to give a partner pleasure via intercourse, doesn't mean I am submissive.
Most radical feminists I know think sex-positivity/negativity are concepts incapable of dealing with our understanding of sexual relations between various bodies.
02:13 PM on 04/12/14 
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Keri
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Most radical feminists I know think sex-positivity/negativity are concepts incapable of dealing with our understanding of sexual relations between various bodies.
Bodies being persons with their own autonomy? I'm really trying to better understand the radical feminist perspective and I did read through a bit of the journal you linked. I'll simply never agree with their extreme viewpoints, though no one is asking me to. I do find the journal to be incredibly articulate, so I can't argue that. I have more thoughts on this, I just worry I'll come off as a dolt in the process.
12:49 PM on 04/13/14 
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Spencer Control
Now we are all sons of bitches
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Bodies being persons with their own autonomy? I'm really trying to better understand the radical feminist perspective and I did read through a bit of the journal you linked. I'll simply never agree with their extreme viewpoints, though no one is asking me to. I do find the journal to be incredibly articulate, so I can't argue that. I have more thoughts on this, I just worry I'll come off as a dolt in the process.

totally get that. That's why I keep my mouth shut most of the time in debates these days, and, honestly, that's okay. It automatically makes you a little bit smarter than some people in most traditional online discussions, because you're listening, and that's more than they're doing.
06:29 PM on 04/13/14 
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Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
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The Motherland
Male - 29 Years Old
Bodies being persons with their own autonomy?
Again, I hesitate to use the word "autonomy" because I'm not sure it is being used correctly. But, yes, people engaging in sexual relations for whatever reason. I think the issue, for them, is that sexual positivity/negativity is a dualism that doesn't quite grasp the depths of human sexuality within the context of a complex social formation. In other words, there is no nuance and both have ahistorical conceptions of sexuality that do not trace the lineage of how sex has changed from our pre-culture days up until this point.
06:57 PM on 04/13/14 
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undonesweater93
Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise
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Probably stating the obvious but equal pay isn't really equal pay because of the money that women have lost in the past won't be paid in reparations
02:12 PM on 04/18/14 
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Jason Tate
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Portland, OR
Male - 31 Years Old
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Ignoring the mansplaning about "what Feminism is" ... to post this article (which hopefully has been passed around already).
05:44 PM on 04/19/14 
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RyanPm40
Ryan
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Probably stating the obvious but equal pay isn't really equal pay because of the money that women have lost in the past won't be paid in reparations

According to my business professor women are making more and being hired more often than males out of college, so at least things are changin'
05:51 PM on 04/19/14 
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Jake Gyllenhaal
There was a fish in the percolator
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Twin Peaks
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