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12:40 PM on 08/24/12 
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jawstheme
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I don't think a logical fallacy is a good starting point for critical thinking, sorry.
12:42 PM on 08/24/12 
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LetterBomb31
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How is it a logical fallacy?
12:43 PM on 08/24/12 
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jawstheme
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straw man
12:54 PM on 08/24/12 
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LetterBomb31
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It's not intended to be a deeply philosophical argument against religion. I'm pretty sure the main idea of the whole thing was to demonstrate how ridiculous creationism is, therefore highlighting the importance of having evidence if you're going to make grand statements like "the earth was made in 7 days", especially if you're going to then go on to demand that this belief should be taught alongside evolution in science class. Does it dismantle all religious beliefs? No, not at all. But it does demonstrate just one of the many logical fallacies of certain religions.
01:00 PM on 08/24/12 
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CollectiveConfusion
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I can see what you're saying, but some people might argue that teaching the kids about the flying spaghetti monster is helping them to develop critical thinking skills, and is perhaps getting them to engage with the topic in a way that they wouldn't have done so otherwise. I mean, is it even possible to indoctrinate a non-belief into someone?

However, I do tend to agree with you that no 13-year-old kid would be interested in this sort of thing without some sort of push from their parents. I don't support the notion of any kind of "atheist camp" or "Christian camp" because it just doesn't seem right somehow. An atheist camp wouldn't be as damaging as a Christian camp or any other kind of religious camp, but still, I don't agree with the concept.

If they were trying to develop critical thinknig skills, they wouldn't use absurdities like that. The point of the camp on the surface is "let's believe what we want to believe" which is fine in theory but in practice they're essentially making fun of every religion. Comparing god, a belief that is the most important thing for billions of people, to a fictional monster created JUST to look ridiculous isn't a fair comparison. It's certainly possible to indoctrinate a non-belief into someone - those kids they interviewed are prime examples.

I find it funny how extreme secular atheists end up doing the same things they harshly criticize evangelicals for. I don't care for christian or atheists camps, but if the kids have a good time, make friends and bonds I can't say I have any problem with it. The crazy camps like the Jesus Camp documentary shows are awful, but I don't think those are as common.

Exactly. I have no religious affiliation at all, but all this does is create a bigger divide between believers and non-believers. Putting down a person's notion of God as comparable to believing in a spaghetti monster is offensive. Kids shouldn't be taught that way.
01:11 PM on 08/24/12 
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LetterBomb31
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If they were trying to develop critical thinking skills, they wouldn't use absurdities like that. The point of the camp on the surface is "let's believe what we want to believe" which is fine in theory but in practice they're essentially making fun of every religion. Comparing god, a belief that is the most important thing for billions of people, to a fictional monster created JUST to look ridiculous isn't a fair comparison. It's certainly possible to indoctrinate a non-belief into someone - those kids they interviewed are prime examples.
Wide acceptance of an idea isn't proof of it's validity, and therefore I don't see any reason why they can't mock what they perceive to be ridiculous beliefs. They're not mocking the belief that gay marriage should be legalized or that women deserve equal rights, or anything else of great significance, they're mocking creationism, which is, let's face it, an absolutely ridiculous belief to have seeing as it directly contradicts scientific fact. Is it wrong of them to teach kids that creationism is stupid? I don't think so.

I have no religious affiliation at all, but all this does is create a bigger divide between believers and non-believers.
I agree with this 100%. Having "atheist camps" and "Christian camps" makes it sound like both sides are preparing for a war or something. It's not right.
01:23 PM on 08/24/12 
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CollectiveConfusion
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Wide acceptance of an idea isn't proof of it's validity, and therefore I don't see any reason why they can't mock what they perceive to be ridiculous beliefs. They're not mocking the belief that gay marriage should be legalized or that women deserve equal rights, or anything else of great significance, they're mocking creationism, which is, let's face it, an absolutely ridiculous belief to have seeing as it directly contradicts scientific fact. Is it wrong of them to teach kids that creationism is stupid? I don't think so.


I agree with this 100%. Having "atheist camps" and "Christian camps" makes it sound like both sides are preparing for a war or something. It's not right.

If they want to mock, mock. But they shouldn't do it under the guise of "we're just trying to open kid's minds." It's false advertsing. They are literally doing the exact opposite.

EDIT: I realize we're on the same side, btw. Just riding out the day...
03:49 PM on 08/24/12 
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jawstheme
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It's not intended to be a deeply philosophical argument against religion. I'm pretty sure the main idea of the whole thing was to demonstrate how ridiculous creationism is, therefore highlighting the importance of having evidence if you're going to make grand statements like "the earth was made in 7 days", especially if you're going to then go on to demand that this belief should be taught alongside evolution in science class. Does it dismantle all religious beliefs? No, not at all. But it does demonstrate just one of the many logical fallacies of certain religions.

The quote wasn't toward creationists but religion in general. Also "creationist" is a general term. Not every creationist believes the earth was made in 7 days, or the earth is 10,000 years old. You're thinking of literal creationists. His quote was in the context of 'you have to prove God exists just like you have to prove there is a flying spaghetti monster, or unicorns.' This isn't itself fallacious, but the spaghetti monster has been substituted, by this camp specifically, as equal to the idea of God and that is absolutely a straw man fallacy.
01:42 PM on 08/25/12 
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bung
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I find it funny how extreme secular atheists end up doing the same things they harshly criticize evangelicals for. I don't care for christian or atheists camps, but if the kids have a good time, make friends and bonds I can't say I have any problem with it. The crazy camps like the Jesus Camp documentary shows are awful, but I don't think those are as common.

This camp isn't really the same thing as an extreme evangelical Christian camp, though, is it? Like, not even in the same ballpark.

Quote:
"We would encourage them to read, to go to church," said Chuck Wolber, one of Camp Quest Northwest's founders. "The best way to become an atheist is to study the Bible, and I definitely recommend the kids do that."

For example: Whereas this camp emphasizes reading the texts of other belief-systems and attending their churches, an evangelical Christian camp, such as the one featured in Jesus Camp, will encourage kids to wail around, speaking in tongues, and strongly discourage (probably even ban) the reading of a modern textbook on evolutionary biology.

This isn't itself fallacious, but the spaghetti monster has been substituted, by this camp specifically, as equal to the idea of God and that is absolutely a straw man fallacy.

No, a straw man fallacy would be if someone were to say that someone who believes in God (whatever your definition) actually believes in the flying spaghetti monster, tentacles and everything. The purpose of the flying spaghetti monster is to provide an example of a ridiculous concoction that clearly has no basis to be believed in, and contrast that idea with the idea of God--an idea that is made to seem much less ridiculous, but equally has no basis to be believed in.
08:13 PM on 08/25/12 
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Wolveress
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That was great, love his take on it.

I'm glad you liked it.
As do I. He really makes some great points.
08:55 PM on 08/25/12 
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acidmob
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I don't see why Christianity is so revered and sacred, yet no one has a problem making fun of Scientology. They're both cults.
11:19 PM on 08/25/12 
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jawstheme
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This camp isn't really the same thing as an extreme evangelical Christian camp, though, is it? Like, not even in the same ballpark.

You took two very different parts of my quote and bolded them together. The atheist camp isn't much different than a typical evangelical camp which they would harshly criticize. Not the same as the extreme 'Jesus Camp' stuff.
11:21 PM on 08/25/12 
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jawstheme
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No, a straw man fallacy would be if someone were to say that someone who believes in God (whatever your definition) actually believes in the flying spaghetti monster, tentacles and everything. The purpose of the flying spaghetti monster is to provide an example of a ridiculous concoction that clearly has no basis to be believed in, and contrast that idea with the idea of God--an idea that is made to seem much less ridiculous, but equally has no basis to be believed in.

You really don't see how that's a straw man? Like the very definition of a straw man?
11:39 PM on 08/25/12 
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Nevuk
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I don't see why Christianity is so revered and sacred, yet no one has a problem making fun of Scientology. They're both cults.
Well, L Ron Hubbard has a quote about founding a religion to get rich. Also, numbers of people practicing it and scientology is very money based (it doesn't cost money to become a better christian but it does to become a higher OT level)
11:56 PM on 08/25/12 
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jawstheme
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I wouldn't take acidmob too seriously.



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