[open mind]

let's have china give georgia back to the cherokee, arm them to the teeth, and back them as they ethnically cleanse the areas non cherokees inhabit and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Spikedeheld

Anyone who has read actual history books about Oslo and Balfour and.. everything.. would know that technically Israel does NOT 'occupy' territories, palestine was never a 'state', and if the palestinians wanted peace, they could've gotten it years ago. Most palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel, it's that "simple". I support Netanyahu 100%.

And for anyone believing media and hates Israel, boycott Israel.. but not before seeing this:

i'll take the great minds and scrap the needless pain in the ass of a country.

[open mind]

Originally Posted by Midget Pirates

in your opinion they are occupiers.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/occupiers

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Originally Posted by Midget Pirates

http://www.jcpa.org/text/occupation-sharon.pdf

you can do all the mental gymnastics in the world you want, it's not going to change the definition.

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Originally Posted by Midget Pirates

it seems you and i have different views on the meaning of "to take"

how has israel not taken land?

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Originally Posted by Midget Pirates

do recognize the formation of Israel and that the land was legally given to them by the UN for a jewish state?

the lands they've taken since were not given to them by the u.n. or anyone else.

[open mind]

Originally Posted by Midget Pirates

yes they were. unless you don't recognize the creation of the state of Israel.

are you are not aware of israeli settlements?

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Originally Posted by KingsCrossing

Apologies in advance if I'm repeating any points already made in this thread. I would like to put across my point of view on this topic (as simplistic as they may be) to keep encouraging debate.

Being a Jew with grandparents as holocaust survivors I understand the necessity for the existence and safety of a Jewish state. However I do not believe that a tragedy excuses the cruel nature and abuse the Palestinian people have endured. Israel has committed numerous atrocities no doubt, whether they believed it was justified or not. On the other hand, to excuse Hamas completely from this equation of suppression would be ridiculous. They do more harm than good for their own people. They are a terrorist organization with the simple goal of the complete eradication of a Jewish state.

I was in Israel earlier this year and one of the most astounding things I noticed was the disparity and schism between the religious sect and the rest of the population. The majority of Israelis want to live in peace, however the religious minority (which is quite small population wise) is destroying any hope for peace through their arrogance and greed.

The country itself seems to be prospering right now- everywhere I turned there were new construction projects and huge cranes. Overall people seem happy and content and I couldn't help but fall in love with the culture and sense of belonging and heritage I felt. I hope that Palestinians can experience that same feeling one day in the not so distant future. Unfortunately I'm not sure if this will ever be resolved and I think the recent peace talks will not achieve much of anything. The undercurrent of religious extremism from both sides is way too strong.

one question.
do you see all the native american tribes that were mercilessly and systemically wiped out by the united states government as the fuckheads of history? because they did what the palestinians are doing now in the face of an insatiable monster......and israel is treating them in kind.

i see the israeli right as just the latest bunch of genocidal dipshits that care for nothing but self preservation and gain......prove me wrong.

the term "never again" obviously means never again (to us). but when we do it to others it's somehow ok.

[open mind]

Originally Posted by TKC

Oh come on, thats what countries and empires have always been about throughout all human history...self preservation and gain. We are ALL genocidal dipshits, whether it be the U.S. destroying Native Americans, or Native Tribes destroying other Native Tribes, or Israel fighting with Palestine and vice versa; its all human fucking nature. Deal with it. Its been around since the beginning, and its going to be around for generations to come. Its never been okay, and I totally feel sympathy for all those oppressed, but the fact of the matter is that social darwinism is in our nature, and the strongest will survive. And apparently right now the israelis are the strongest. If it was palestine, they would be the ones in charge, right?

sorry to bring facts into the conversation but native american tribes by and large didn't wipe each other out so much as they fought occasional battles when resources ran scarce.....genocide is almost exclusively a product of western civilization and the civilizations it's come in contact with.

it's not human nature.....if anything humanity is a naturally cooperative species.....that's how we've managed to accomplish so much in such a relatively short span (20k or so years) chimpanzee nature on the other hand is all about territory and wiping out enemies and look what they've accomplished.

social darwinism is for the retarded.

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Originally Posted by Simulcast

Wow, that's completely wrong.

care to provide any backing for that?

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Originally Posted by Simulcast

Just off the top of my head? The Sudan, Rwanda, Mao, Pol Pot, The Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, Ancient India, Ancient Mexico, Japan against the Chinese, Iraq against the Kurds.

first 4 were most definately in contact and influenced by western civilization well before the genocides (and i'd say were partly if not wholly the fault of western policies) the ancient examples you provide (aside from mexico which i'm not sure i'd qualify as genocide) essentially gave birth to western civilization.....and those last 2 were certainly influenced by western empires.......so try again.

i know it might seem like splitting hairs but mass killings do not automattically equal genocide.

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Originally Posted by Simulcast

Nothing to try again. You're obviously looking to paint western civilization (and probably white people in general) in a bad light when your contention should instead be with human nature. Genocide is not exclusive to western culture. The facts do not support that conclusion.

i said almost exclusively.....and the facts back my assertion.

i don't buy into the thought that human nature is inherently fucked up and greedy. thousands of civilizations thrived for thousands of years in close proximity to each other without committing genocide. you might argue that that's because they didn't have the technology to do so, but if you do so the burden of proof is on you.

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Originally Posted by Simulcast

No, they don't. Pol pot was not influenced by western culture. He tried to exterminate any semblance of it. Same with Mao. The argument about the ancients giving birth to western civ allowing them to somehow be excluded is incredibly stupid.

What civilizations? The Greeks? Romans? Persians? Chinese? Mongols? Indians? The Egyptians? Japanese and Koreans (yes, even in ancient times)? India and it's neighbors? They've all slaughtered their neighbors at one time or another.

For someone with an open mind, you're incredibly dense. So long as the facts fit your narrow view of the world, everything is okay.

so a reaction to an outside source isn't influence? calling something stupid does not make it so.

slaughter does not equal genocide.

you're talking about europe and asia, and believe it or not these continents have a long and well-documented relationship of exchanging ideas....and the same can be said for their leadership. what civilizations? how about the 1,500 or so that once inhabited north america alone? how about the various cultures that are being destroyed today by the austalians, the brazilians, and every other country that still has people that are hanging on to the way of life that they're ancestors have known for thousands of years in order to make room for luxury hotels, mines, and industry?

insert attack on random posters intelligence that adds nothing to the discussion here.

[open mind]

Originally Posted by Simulcast

Nothing to try again. You're obviously looking to paint western civilization (and probably white people in general) in a bad light when your contention should instead be with human nature. Genocide is not exclusive to western culture. The facts do not support that conclusion.

i failed to take note of it before so i'll do it now.

thanks for playing the race card.

[open mind]

Originally Posted by Simulcast

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide

thanks for making my point clearer?