AbsolutePunk.net
   Username
Password
 
Share
10:13 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
tonyC4L
tech-savvy at-risk youth
tonyC4L's Avatar
San Francisco, CA
Male - 26 Years Old
I agree with you about the balding, belief is not the root of all physical states and changes, but belief IS the root of all actions. Things like kissing, touching, and further are intimate actions, therefore intimate actions are rooted in belief, therefore sexuality is caused by belief alone. If something else has just changed your belief on something, then you have just been brainwashed(by my definition) which is not always a bad thing. All sexuality is either by choice or by brainwashing. Also, brainwashing(by my definition) is extremely difficult to overcome once you realize what it is. So having a healthy cynicism and assuming people will not choose the difficult path to overcome it, I realize it's better to assume brainwashing isn't a choice. Being straight is no exception, neither is believing in a religion, or the way a person is raised, these are all brainwashing. This is one big reason WHY we SHOULD have freedom of religion, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom of attraction, freedom of marriage, and probably more.
I grew up knowing only one gay person who I saw get ridiculed constantly at school and wanted nothing to do with, and with all my guy friends talking about and dating girls, and being a member of the Catholic Church and being told to follow its teachings and reminding myself constantly that homosexuality is a sin that I need to overcome. Would you call this brainwashing? With all this straightness in my life why did I still turn out to be gay?
10:17 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
sjb2k1
6-5, still in it baby!
sjb2k1's Avatar
the bull city
Female - 31 Years Old
I grew up knowing only one gay person who I saw get ridiculed constantly at school and wanted nothing to do with, and with all my guy friends talking about and dating girls, and being a member of the Catholic Church and being told to follow its teachings and reminding myself constantly that homosexuality is a sin that I need to overcome. Would you call this brainwashing? With all this straightness in my life why did I still turn out to be gay?
i too went to a catholic school, attended church, followed its teachings and still turned out to be gay. i don't think i even heard the word lesbian until i was in high school, at least.
10:23 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
White
Pornography and a bag of drugs.
White's Avatar
Orgasmville, NA
Otherkin
@misfitsfan

Perhaps it is possible to "train" yourself (to put it stupidly) to be attracted to the same sex. Maybe your sexual tastes can expand to the point where gender becomes of secondary consideration. Something somewhat to that effect happened with me. But of course you could always argue that that aspect of myself was simply dormant for a time. I don't know. Maybe everyone is born pansexual. There is much to learn about human sexuality. And that's kind of my point. The world's leading minds don't fully understand it, and I'm certain you don't either. Don't be so assertive and adamant. Your argument seems to smell of confirmation bias.

.also your, analogies; are worse then the! grammar in this...: sentence" It's been documented that you can train your hands AND your tastebuds. But every documented attempt at a sexuality conversation has crashed and burned in tremendous fashion. The three are similar insofar as they're human traits unique to the individual that are biologically predetermined to varying extents. But that's where the similarities stop. You're attributing things to sexuality that aren't known attributes of it. Hence why your argument sucks and is gay.
10:23 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
MisfitsFan2013
No Avatar Selected
I grew up knowing only one gay person who I saw get ridiculed constantly at school and wanted nothing to do with, and with all my guy friends talking about and dating girls, and being a member of the Catholic Church and being told to follow its teachings and reminding myself constantly that homosexuality is a sin that I need to overcome. Would you call this brainwashing? With all this straightness in my life why did I still turn out to be gay?

I wouldn't call that brainwashing, I'd call that failed attempts at brainwashing.
Did you ever at any time in your life believe that being gay was wrong? And do you remember exactly when you started to believe that being gay is not wrong?
10:41 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
White
Pornography and a bag of drugs.
White's Avatar
Orgasmville, NA
Otherkin
I wouldn't call that brainwashing, I'd call that failed attempts at brainwashing.
Did you ever at any time in your life believe that being gay was wrong? And do you remember exactly when you started to believe that being gay is not wrong?

Case in point, re confirmation bias.

"Your sexuality can be brainwashed into you."
"I grew up in a very anti-gay environment but still turned out gay."
"That's 'cause your brainwashing didn't work."

How convenient.
11:47 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
MisfitsFan2013
No Avatar Selected
@misfitsfan

Perhaps it is possible to "train" yourself (to put it stupidly) to be attracted to the same sex. Maybe your sexual tastes can expand to the point where gender becomes of secondary consideration. Something somewhat to that effect happened with me. But of course you could always argue that that aspect of myself was simply dormant for a time. I don't know. Maybe everyone is born pansexual. There is much to learn about human sexuality. And that's kind of my point. The world's leading minds don't fully understand it, and I'm certain you don't either. Don't be so assertive and adamant. Your argument seems to smell of confirmation bias.

I strongly believe that a person can train themselves into a new sexual orientation mainly from my own personal experience. I don't believe it was simply dormant. I'll tell you why I believe that. I used to believe everyone was born bisexual and ambidextrous, they just simply went one way or the other. I then tried a self-experiment to try to make myself ambidextrous so I could be like the guitarist Micheal Angelo Batio. I tried doing everything left-handed, opening doors, brushing my teeth, eating my food with a fork in my left hand, writing left hand, playing guitar left hand. I was doing everything left-handed for a whole month, and after that month I realized I had gotten worse at doing those things with my right hand. So I tried to balance it out, brushing my left teeth with my right hand and my right teeth with my left hand, eating with 2 forks, playing guitar right then left handed. And I kept getting better and better with my left hand. Then I hit a road block. I realized my left hand would get sore/fatigued quicker when I would try to use it up to par on the level of my right hand. I reasoned this to be because I had used my right hand muscles so long that my left hand muscles are too weak to keep up from lack of use. I then realized I would have to continue this ambidextrous training routine for probably over a decade in order for my left hand to be at the level of my right hand, and all the criticisms people were giving me "that's stupid! why work on making your left hand better when you could spend the same amount of time making your right hand better?". All of those criticisms started to sink in. And I realized it was a waste of time since I had already found the answer I was looking for: that it's possible. After I changed my mind and stopped trying to become ambidextrous, I realized that I had just been brainwashed into being right-handed... again. Then I stopped believing people were born ambidextrous and that instead they are born not good at either hand. This easily linked to my beliefs on sexuality, that everyone is born without a sexuality, therefore we cannot be born into a sexuality if we are born without a sexuality. Also, if confirmation bias is synonymous to self-evidence, then I consider confirmation bias to be the strongest form of evidence and proof, since documents can be faked and be full of lies.
.also your, analogies; are worse then the! grammar in this...: sentence" It's been documented that you can train your hands AND your tastebuds. But every documented attempt at a sexuality conversation has crashed and burned in tremendous fashion. The three are similar insofar as they're human traits unique to the individual that are biologically predetermined to varying extents. But that's where the similarities stop. You're attributing things to sexuality that aren't known attributes of it. Hence why your argument sucks and is gay.

What do you mean by a sexuality conversion? because I have attempted a conversion and succeeded. I wasn't willing to step out of my comfort zone, instead I JUMPED out of my comfort zone and did something repeatedly that my body was almost violently against, until the burning uncomfortable feeling in my stomach slowly began to disappear and turn into positive emotions. Not many people have the willpower to step out, nonetheless jump out. I also overcame most of my fear, jealousy, and especially anger. Most people never witness me get angry or jealous or afraid. And if I do get angry, its only indignation. But your argument is very good, since it forced me off of the beer analogy this time.
11:53 PM on 01/17/13 
Offline
User Info.
MisfitsFan2013
No Avatar Selected
Case in point, re confirmation bias.

"Your sexuality can be brainwashed into you."
"I grew up in a very anti-gay environment but still turned out gay."
"That's 'cause your brainwashing didn't work."

How convenient.

Anyone can choose to resist brainwashing. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes its not. Its not easy to resist brainwashing if you don't know it IS brainwashing. If someone points a gun to our heads, that is an attempt to brainwash us into thinking we will die if we don't do what they say. We can resist the brainwashing by choice, but sometimes its not that easy to resist believing that.
12:10 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
caveBEAR
( ω )
caveBEAR's Avatar
Tallahassee, FL
Male - 27 Years Old
at first i was like


but then i was like


and now i'm like
12:40 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
White
Pornography and a bag of drugs.
White's Avatar
Orgasmville, NA
Otherkin
I strongly believe that a person can train themselves into a new sexual orientation mainly from my own personal experience. I don't believe it was simply dormant. I'll tell you why I believe that. I used to believe everyone was born bisexual and ambidextrous, they just simply went one way or the other. I then tried a self-experiment to try to make myself ambidextrous so I could be like the guitarist Micheal Angelo Batio. I tried doing everything left-handed, opening doors, brushing my teeth, eating my food with a fork in my left hand, writing left hand, playing guitar left hand. I was doing everything left-handed for a whole month, and after that month I realized I had gotten worse at doing those things with my right hand. So I tried to balance it out, brushing my left teeth with my right hand and my right teeth with my left hand, eating with 2 forks, playing guitar right then left handed. And I kept getting better and better with my left hand. Then I hit a road block. I realized my left hand would get sore/fatigued quicker when I would try to use it up to par on the level of my right hand. I reasoned this to be because I had used my right hand muscles so long that my left hand muscles are too weak to keep up from lack of use. I then realized I would have to continue this ambidextrous training routine for probably over a decade in order for my left hand to be at the level of my right hand, and all the criticisms people were giving me "that's stupid! why work on making your left hand better when you could spend the same amount of time making your right hand better?". All of those criticisms started to sink in. And I realized it was a waste of time since I had already found the answer I was looking for: that it's possible. After I changed my mind and stopped trying to become ambidextrous, I realized that I had just been brainwashed into being right-handed... again. Then I stopped believing people were born ambidextrous and that instead they are born not good at either hand. This easily linked to my beliefs on sexuality, that everyone is born without a sexuality, therefore we cannot be born into a sexuality if we are born without a sexuality. Also, if confirmation bias is synonymous to self-evidence, then I consider confirmation bias to be the strongest form of evidence and proof, since documents can be faked and be full of lies.

What do you mean by a sexuality conversion? because I have attempted a conversion and succeeded. I wasn't willing to step out of my comfort zone, instead I JUMPED out of my comfort zone and did something repeatedly that my body was almost violently against, until the burning uncomfortable feeling in my stomach slowly began to disappear and turn into positive emotions. Not many people have the willpower to step out, nonetheless jump out. I also overcame most of my fear, jealousy, and especially anger. Most people never witness me get angry or jealous or afraid. And if I do get angry, its only indignation. But your argument is very good, since it forced me off of the beer analogy this time.

Again, the dexterity analogy isn't good because the ability to train a hand is well documented. Not to mention, you're making a few leaps. It doesn't follow that because handedness can be learned that people aren't born a certain way or without a certain predisposition. If people were equal-opprotunity-dexterious, wouldn't logic dictate that the ratio of right-handed people to left-handed people would be about 1:1 rather than like 5:1 as it is? If there was no biological mechanism behind handedness, the results would be completely random and very, VERY likely wouldn't so heavily lean a certain way.

And confirmation bias is a tendency to only regard evidence that supports your belief, while not giving opposing evidence the same consideration. You've come to a conclusion (that sexuality can essentially be controlled) and hold keen to that notion in the face of contradictions (of which there are many). It's something a LOT of people are guilty of to some extent or another, so it's not a huge issue in and of itself. But in your case, the evidence you're holding to is really, really bad. "Self-evidence" is generally considered the weakest and most unreliable of evidence. Documents can indeed be faked, but people can lie, be deceived, be confused, be mistaken, or be outright stupid.

Because of how much ambiguity there is surrounding this particular aspect of sexuality, there's very little you can be certain of. There's no reason why I can't argue your bisexuality wasn't just repressed and you can't honestly tell me otherwise, no matter what you feel. (Feelings, no matter how convicted you are in those feelings ≠ knowledge.) It's as valid an argument as you simply telling me you "chose" it. If anything, my argument is more valid as sexual repression, like the training of one's handedness, is also well documented. The fact that you were "almost violently" against it does seem to suggest repression of some kind.

Tell me, though, how exactly does one change their sexuality? You claim to simply have just done stuff with guys and eventually you liked it. Well, sjb2k1 (whose name I think is Stef...I might've just made that up though), who is a well-known lesbot, has done a bunch of shit with dudes and it didn't do anything for her sexuality. Why? Now, here you might argue it didn't work because she wasn't open to it or something, and this is where your confirmation bias shows its head. You're more interested in bolstering and confirming your own belief rather than honestly considering the alternative, so you rationalize your position in the face of something that seemingly contradicts it. Regardless, though, if you contend her mind wasn't open...how does one open their mind? It's clearly something remarkably difficult as not many (I'm gonna go ahead and say no one) have done it successfully. So, talk me through the steps towards opening your mind, because it's WAAAAAAAAAAY easier said than done. Then take those steps, have them reviewed and validated by some experts in the field, have your findings published, and earn yourself a Nobel Prize in...whatever.

I feel like I wrote too much. Edit: Oh yeah.
12:46 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
White
Pornography and a bag of drugs.
White's Avatar
Orgasmville, NA
Otherkin
Anyone can choose to resist brainwashing. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes its not. Its not easy to resist brainwashing if you don't know it IS brainwashing. If someone points a gun to our heads, that is an attempt to brainwash us into thinking we will die if we don't do what they say. We can resist the brainwashing by choice, but sometimes its not that easy to resist believing that.

Talk us through the proper way to brainwash someone, and how to effectively resist it.
12:52 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
caveBEAR
( ω )
caveBEAR's Avatar
Tallahassee, FL
Male - 27 Years Old
Talk us through the proper way to brainwash someone, and how to effectively resist it.

it's not worth it. i'm pretty sure he'll be gone once the mods get to his 'age of consent' thread.
02:44 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
MisfitsFan2013
No Avatar Selected
Again, the dexterity analogy isn't good because...5:1 ratio isn't logically random

you are a very very good debater and I might actually get what I want in a debate with you: to lose as difficult as possible so I can get better. There's no good way I could explain the ratio difference at this time. I was going to use the argument that I know a whole family that is left-handed but then that would just lead to a Nature VS Nurture debate of handedness, both theories with enough evidence to support both. In these situations I try to merge the 2 together and see if that makes more sense. So unless I can come up with a good nurture-based argument that explains the 5:1 ratio, then I guess I'm stuck with nature and nurture for handedness. So maybe people are born that way AND people can train themselves to be that way if they are not, in concerns with handedness.
I also thought of a cigarette addict analogy to support the nurture(choice or brainwashing) side for sexuality. People who are addicted to cigarettes can quit but it's extremely hard, but still possible. No one is born a cigarette smoker, they become addicted to it when they try it, just like intimacy. The difference between cigarettes and sexuality is health. Lets assume were talking about only people who engage in intimacy safely(STD prevention), so its much less likely someone is even going to want to quit their sexuality as compared to a cigarette addiction because intimacy is healthy in every way.
"Self-evidence" is generally considered the weakest and most unreliable of evidence. Documents can indeed be faked, but people can lie, be deceived, be confused, be mistaken, or be outright stupid.

That is where faith comes in. I believe 100% proof(fact) is something that is universally self-evident to everyone who gets access to the evidence. I have less faith for regular self-evidence, and less faith for strong unproven theories, and even less faith for unproven theories with a lack of evidence and even less faith in a theory with no backing evidence. I also am very cynical towards these things, but at the same time, why would Stef lie about her experiences? There really is no advantage if she were to lie about that. That's why I have faith in her story being true.
Because of how much ambiguity there is surrounding this particular aspect of sexuality, there's very little you can be certain of. There's no reason why I can't argue your bisexuality wasn't just repressed and you can't honestly tell me otherwise, no matter what you feel. (Feelings, no matter how convicted you are in those feelings ≠ knowledge.) It's as valid an argument as you simply telling me you chose it. If anything, my argument is more valid as sexual repression, like the training of one's handedness, is also well documented. The fact that you were "almost violently" against it does seem to suggest repression of some kind.

Then how does that explain why I'm so damn attracted to hot girls and traps but not attracted to regular trannies, masculine guys, or masculine-looking girls? I have an explanation, but again it's a nurture-based argument.
Tell me, though, how exactly does one change their sexuality?
1) convince yourself that you are that sexuality (Examples: I'm a sexual man I love pussy!; I'm gay and proud I love dick!; I love being intimate with both!; I hate all sexuality, its a huge disappointment and a waste of time and money, I have more fun pleasing myself!)
2) do your best to convince others that you are that sexuality(Examples: when around others say "damn that girl is fuckin hot" or "damn that guy has a nice ass" or both, or "They're all less than perfect, no one will ever satisfy me sexually except me because all the girls are bitches and all the guys are assholes so they aren't worth the trouble, I'd rather just masturbate")
3) get feedback from others that you are that way ("yeah he's definitely straight", "yeah he's gay", "yeah he's bi", "yeah he doesn't fuck/have sex")
There is also a lot more I could add to #2 but I doubt anyone would even want to try this anyway(which could explain why people's sexuality doesn't change easily probably because they aren't willing to try to change it).
You claim to simply have just done stuff with guys and eventually you liked it. Well, sjb2k1 (whose name I think is Stef...I might've just made that up though), who is a well-known lesbot, has done a bunch of shit with dudes and it didn't do anything for her sexuality. Why? Now, here you might argue it didn't work because she wasn't open to it or something, and this is where your confirmation bias shows its head. You're more interested in bolstering and confirming your own belief rather than honestly considering the alternative, so you rationalize your position in the face of something that seemingly contradicts it. Regardless, though, if you contend her mind wasn't open...
There is little I know about her case. Maybe the guys she dated just wasn't valuable enough despite being "charming". Because there are plenty of straight girls who are single all the time because they can't seem to find a guy who isn't creepy, needy, a jerk, or a weakling. In this theory, the difference is the straight girl hasn't gave up the search for a guy. Now that Stef believes she was born a lesbian and she strongly believes she's not attracted to men, it would be virtually impossible for her to become attracted to a guy now unless she probably spent years trying the above method to become bisexual or homoflexible(which is a more realistic step). Why waste years going through negative emotions just to prove its possible?(unless she's like me).
...how does one open their mind? It's clearly something remarkably difficult as not many (I'm gonna go ahead and say no one) have done it successfully. So, talk me through the steps towards opening your mind, because it's WAAAAAAAAAAY easier said than done. Then take those steps, have them reviewed and validated by some experts in the field, have your findings published, and earn yourself a Nobel Prize in...whatever.

I feel like I wrote too much. Edit: Oh yeah.

1) learn empathy 2) practice empathy 3) reform lack of empathy 4) repeat 1-4 for the rest of your life
03:09 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
MisfitsFan2013
No Avatar Selected
Talk us through the proper way to brainwash someone, and how to effectively resist it.

First off, any brainwashing can be resisted, it all depends on how strong the brainwashing is in order to know how easy/difficult it is to resist it. There are so many ways to be brainwashed and so many examples I don't know where to start.
Putting cameras everywhere could brainwash people into thinking they are safe, or brainwash people into thinking they will get caught if they commit a crime in the area of the cameras, or brainwash people into thinking their privacy is being invaded.
How do you resist it? by simply stop believing in it. Like when you stop believing that Santa Claus has magic reindeer and when you stop believing that it was actually him who got you all those presents with his name on it. When you stop believing that the government keeps you safe, when you stop believing in consequences to crimes, when you stop believing in a religion you were raised in. When you stop believing in anything that something other than yourself got you to believe, that is how you resist brainwashing. It's not always a good thing to resist it, and brainwashing itself is not always a bad thing.
06:37 AM on 01/18/13 
Online
User Info.
Jake Gyllenhaal
Baloney and beans
Jake Gyllenhaal's Avatar
Connecticut
Male
Gyllenhaal out!

06:50 AM on 01/18/13 
Offline
User Info.
birdman
Don't hold your breath
birdman's Avatar
Atlanta, Ga
Male

And with the departure of Gyllenhall, the birdman arrives




NEWS, MUSIC & MORE
Search News
Release Dates
Exclusives
Best New Music
Articles
CONNECT
Submit News
Forums
Contests
Mobile Version
AP.net Logos
HIDDEN TREASURES
AbsolutePunk Podcast
Free Music
Sports Forum
Technology Forum
Recommendations
INFORMATION
Advertising
Contact Us
Copyright Policy
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
FOLLOW
Twitter | Facebook | RSS
AP.net Podcast on iTunes
UnderTheGun
Purevolume
Chorus.fm | @jason_tate