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So when are we going to let Drew know that defensive plays like that are routine for teams without 5'8", 250 lb. shortstops?

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Originally Posted by ko1220

I've still yet to figure out why he took so many steps, that fall could have been avoided. At the same time I can't stop laughing.
Also, if i knew how to post gifs i would add another

Do you know how to post pictures (the insert image icon)? If so, you know how to post gifs.

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Carl Crawford is the Barry Bonds of grounding out to second.

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Brewers could take a 5 game series against the Phillies.

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Did I really just hear a Brewers' announcer say that Felipe Lopez is a step down defensively from Hairston? First of all, I don't think that's even true, but is there really another step anyway?

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Originally Posted by Genuma

Wins definitely aren't the end all be all of pitching statistics, but to say they're completely irrelevant is wrong. The pitcher at least did something right to get the decision. I'm not saying 300 wins in 27 seasons is anything remarkable because it works out to basically 11 wins a season, but it is remarkable to be a dominant pitcher for 27 seasons.

Originally Posted by SgtSmegma

I don't think that anyone would argue that they're completely irrelevant, but they're an extremely overrated statistic. Too many factors beyond the pitcher's control factor into whether or not he gets a W.

Wins are irrelevant.

They're a name that was attached to a certain outcome. To focus in on SP; if a pitcher completes five innings, with the lead, and the team goes on to win without surrendering the lead, the SP is attributed the "win."

What is valuable is the quality innings pitched.

Two scenarios:

1) Pitcher A exits after 6 innings pitched, having surrendered 4 earned runs and his team leading 7-4. The team goes on to win with the SP is credited with the win.

2) Pitcher B exits after 6 innings pitched, having surrendered 2 earned runs and his team trailing 0-2. The team goes on to lose with the SP is credited with the loss.

Pitcher A won, Pitcher B lost, yet clearly, what Pitcher B contributed was more valuable than Pitcher A. This is because it's the innings pitched that are of value, not "the win." That's not to say that what Pitcher A did was not valuable, just less so than Pitcher B.



**I'm dumbing down the situation. With advanced stats, it is possible to conclude that one pitcher is more valuable than another pitcher despite allowing more earned runs as a result of defense, park factors, luck, but the general point remains the same.

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I don't have a long enough history of posting in the baseball threads. Does this happen every time a new thread starts, we all forget what we know?


If so, I'm just gonna have to wait another 10-15 pages before posting again.

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Originally Posted by Eich696

Smegma agreed with what you said?

Mostly quoted since I'm jumping in their discussion. Though even he said that no one would would say wins are irrelevant, which I'll say.

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Should be noted that Paul Goldschmidt is a BEAST.

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On the flip side, how about Randy Johnson's second year with the Yankees: 17 wins, 5.00 ERA.

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Originally Posted by Eich696

I agree. They are mostly irrelevant and highly dependent upon things beyond a pitchers control such as the defense behind you and how well your team hits on that certain day. There are times where getting the W does mean something though to me at least.

When?

If you're up for a debate on it, then I'd like to know. If it just means something to you despite the facts and you can't be swayed, that's cool as well.

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How fucking lucky was Barry Zito in 2002?

23-5, 2.75 ERA (3.87 FIP, 4.04 tERA, 4.15 SIERA), 19.4K% and 8.3BB%, 80.7% LOB and .245 BABIP.with Tejada, Dye, Justice, Terrence Long and Jeremy Giambi for a half a season behind him.

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Originally Posted by Eich696

If a pitcher throws a perfect game shouldn't the W he receives mean something?

I agree with everything youve been saying though. Wins-Losses are extremely overrated stats. They depend upon so many things that a pitcher cannot control. I mean look at Felix last year.

I realize we're arguing over a small difference in opinion, but no it shouldn't.

That's not to say it's not an impressive feat, but it's completely seperate from the win. I'd still judge him on strikeouts, control, how often the defense really came to the rescue, etc. basically the things that we can assign a value to and attribute to the pitcher.

A percentage of a win can be attributed to a pitcher based on their performance, but when a pitcher isn't responsible for 100% of the win (a chance of I'd guess 1/infinity), it's an irrelevant statistic.

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Originally Posted by troubledbyinsects

K% and BB% are on Fangraphs under "advanced."

Danke.