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04:51 PM on 10/05/12 
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Broken Parachute
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In what circumstances, if any, would the president have constitutional authority to bomb Iran without seeking a use-of-force authorization from Congress? (Specifically, what about the strategic bombing of suspected nuclear sites -- a situation that does not involve stopping an IMMINENT threat?)"

While the specific context of Savage’s question concerned Iranian nuclear plants, we think Obama’s answer raised some points that are relevant for assessing the justification for the Libyan operation three years later.

Obama said, "The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."

He added, "As commander-in-chief, the president does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the president would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent. History has shown us time and again, however, that military action is most successful when it is authorized and supported by the legislative branch. It is always preferable to have the informed consent of Congress prior to any military action."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-flop-what-he/
04:53 PM on 10/05/12 
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David87
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Well, at least in terms of Afghanistan, I'm saying I actually agreed with his decision on the surge, that was my viewpoint pre-2008 election. I never understood why we were in Iraq and why we were more or less backburning the mission in Afghanistan.

I also agreed with NATO doing what they did in Libya, and how it didn't become a quagmire for America and America alone
04:53 PM on 10/05/12 
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Broken Parachute
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His drone bullshit, which I also disagree with, is not equable with all of Bush's atrocities.

And Libya is not Iraq.

My issue was not that he was perfect -- it was that you equated the two. That's ridiculous.

Yes. The War Powers Act technically only refers to troops on the ground, which we did not have in Libya. It also has a 30 day grace period after the 60 day grace period (confusing, I know). And yes, this is a technicality and very shady on Obama's part, and another example of how America really needs to improve on bringing older laws into the 21st century, but on a technical level you are wrong about Libya. In any case, saying what Obama did regarding Libya is remotely comparable to, let alone possibly worse than, George Bush regarding Iraq is like comparing a stubbed toe to losing a leg.
I'll concede that fact, but see my other post. For a guy to say he believes in the consent of Congress unless an imminent threat to our national security exists and then to do the same thing Bush did (I know, different countries) should at least be brought up.
04:54 PM on 10/05/12 
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jawstheme
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He went drone in favor of boots on the ground which is a pretty significant difference (not saying I'm approving of what he's been doing with the drones though)....and Libya was a NATO outing, was it not?

I also agreed with his decision to surge in Afghanistan whilst pulling troops out of Iraq. Afghanistan is the only place we should have been since 9/11...

What he's done with the drone war could be considered terrorism. He's unapologetically murdered innocent civilians with a falsely labeled "precise" attacks and left thousands of innocents in fear for their lives on a daily bases. This of course has strengthened support for extremist regimes. I don't think you can say that "boots on the ground" is a worse solution. Maybe for our convenience it is, but it doesn't seem to helping any sort of cause, and it puts foreign innocents at risks over our soldiers.

Arguing Obama's war policies is probably not a road supporters should take.
And yes Iraq was a huge fuck up that Obama hasn't matched, but he exactly represented us in a way that is inconsistent with Bush.
04:55 PM on 10/05/12 
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crackedthesky
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I'll concede that fact, but see my other post. For a guy to say he believes in the consent of Congress unless an imminent threat to our national security exists and then to do the same thing Bush did (I know, different countries) should at least be brought up.

One of them doesn't even take into account the War Powers act. The question was about immediate nuclear threat; he wasn't asked anything about 90-day air strikes, so he didn't give an answer justifying 90-day air strikes.
04:56 PM on 10/05/12 
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Broken Parachute
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And the attack that killed Anwar al-Awlaki (ya know... a U.S. citizen) is still unsettling to me.
04:57 PM on 10/05/12 
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David87
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What he's done with the drone war could be considered terrorism. He's unapologetically murdered innocent civilians with a falsely labeled "precise" attacks and left thousands of innocents in fear for their lives on a daily bases. This of course has strengthened support for extremist regimes. I don't think you can say that "boots on the ground" is a worse solution. Maybe for our convenience it is, but it doesn't seem to helping any sort of cause, and it puts foreign innocents at risks over our soldiers.

Arguing Obama's war policies is probably not a road supporters should take.

Foreign innocents are just as much at risk when our troops are there shooting around.

I brought this up a couple weeks ago in this thread and I don't remember if you were around for it...but I'd really prefer we just start going hardcore covert assassin mode at this point. Find a target, send in a sniper team, take him out. Invading entire nations and drone attacking targets just leads to more innocent deaths which leads to more people getting pissed off.

I know cold blooded assassination isn't exactly a great thing to do, but hte fact is America does have enemies, and those enemies need to be dealt with somehow. I think the best way to do so is take out the ones that currently exist while avoiding, as much as possible, taking innocent lives in the process.
04:58 PM on 10/05/12 
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crackedthesky
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What he's done with the drone war could be considered terrorism. He's unapologetically murdered innocent civilians with a falsely labeled "precise" attacks and left thousands of innocents in fear for their lives on a daily bases. This of course has strengthened support for extremist regimes. I don't think you can say that "boots on the ground" is a worse solution. Maybe for our convenience it is, but it doesn't seem to helping any sort of cause, and it puts foreign innocents at risks over our soldiers.

Arguing Obama's war policies is probably not a road supporters should take.

That didn't happen in Libya, though, which is the comparison we took issue with. Nobody has said Obama isn't as bad as Bush when it comes to drones. And I think there is something to be said in Obama's successful attempts to end both wars, considering his opponents year after year would extend both wars indefinitely.

When it comes to drones, Obama's a douchebag. But after next year that won't even be happening anymore.
04:59 PM on 10/05/12 
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jawstheme
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Foreign innocents are just as much at risk when our troops are there shooting around.

I brought this up a couple weeks ago in this thread and I don't remember if you were around for it...but I'd really prefer we just start going hardcore covert assassin mode at this point. Find a target, send in a sniper team, take him out. Invading entire nations and drone attacking targets just leads to more innocent deaths which leads to more people getting pissed off.

I know cold blooded assassination isn't exactly a great thing to do, but hte fact is America does have enemies, and those enemies need to be dealt with somehow. I think the best way to do so is take out the ones that currently exist while avoiding, as much as possible, taking innocent lives in the process.

I'd prefer this over drone wars, but there needs to be a line drawn at least at US citizen. Its just scary to give the government power to essentially execute at will.
04:59 PM on 10/05/12 
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kyle is hk
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Dammit, I had day 4 in the "When would tate ban birdman" pool. So close.
05:00 PM on 10/05/12 
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Broken Parachute
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To play devil's advocate... this bullshit will only continue if Romney wins, so it's kinda pointless to even worry about it.
05:02 PM on 10/05/12 
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crackedthesky
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To play devil's advocate... this bullshit will only continue if Romney wins, so it's kinda pointless to even worry about it.

And to play devil's advocate advocate, this is true because those decisions I think are mostly the military convincing the president that this is the only way, and as you said, Obama kept a lot of the Bush military guys in place.
05:05 PM on 10/05/12 
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crackedthesky
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Eh birdman seemed to be trying to get banned in the last few pages

Yeah, my guess is his cognitive dissonance got so bad he had to make a martyr of himself to convince himself that all of us liberals are the horrible people who can't take opposing views he constantly tries to paint us as.

RIP birdman. But don't lose hope, we can still save Big Bird!
05:06 PM on 10/05/12 
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David87
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Colbert went there last night.

"Diddy did it"
05:06 PM on 10/05/12 
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georgedcc
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Jason, is Birdman's ban a 'lifetime' ban? Or has he just been put in the sin bin for a few days to cool off?
 



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