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08:22 AM on 10/06/12 
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kyle is hk
The Goddamn Loveliest Melody
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Jersey
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It's crazy to think any of the above individuals have a dearth of information at this point from which to make a decision. Whether or not they avail themselves of that information is the whole point I was making. While it may be a generalization - the vast majority of the "undecideds" are undecided by their own choice.
Also - this is hardly the worst that has ever been said about someone's mother on the AP forums, so let's get real here. My parents are rural hicks who would vote for Romney cuz they don't like the angry black dude. Feel better?

Everyone knows the American electorate is generally uninformed, and willfully so. I didn't think I was pointing out anything controversial.

Don't have time? Why do I suspect the same people who "don't have time" are the same ones who probably have "Freedom Ain't Free" bumper stickers on their cars? If voting is a right - I think it's fair to say it's also a responsibility. If they don't have time to make an informed decision with their vote, I'd just as soon they stay home. While they may not be lazy people, they are certainly lazy voters.

Again - I was making a commentary about the general voting public - not necessarily someone's mother.

This is my whole point in a nutshell.

I don't really make a distinction between laziness and apathy. Semantics, I guess.

If they can't make a token effort every four years for a presidential election, they should stay home, then. It's not about making it a hobby. It's about making an informed decision.

If people were purchasing a car or a home, but were "apathetic" or "didn't have time" or "don't make a hobby out of" making an informed decision - you'd be all over them for being lazy and stupid. But for some reason they get a pass on the fucking election of their nation's president? Jesus Christ...


Let's put it this way:

It would be stupid to say Obama and Romney are the exact same.
It would be stupid to say Obama and Romney are the opposite.

So lets arbitrarily say on a 10 point a scale of ideology, Romney is an 8 and Obama is a 6. You really don't think that there are a section of people in the country who are 7s, and ideologically right in between the two, and could still be swayed one way or the other? There' a whole month of the election let. You could argue it hasn't even kicked into full gear. Are a large % of the population apathetic or lazy? Yes! But to categorize everyone in that when there's a lot of grey between the candidates is soooo arrogant.
08:28 AM on 10/06/12 
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GeeBee
Tertium Non Datur
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Let's put it this way:

It would be stupid to say Obama and Romney are the exact same.
It would be stupid to say Obama and Romney are the opposite.

So lets arbitrarily say on a 10 point a scale of ideology, Romney is an 8 and Obama is a 6. You really don't think that there are a section of people in the country who are 7s, and ideologically right in between the two, and could still be swayed one way or the other? There' a whole month of the election let. You could argue it hasn't even kicked into full gear. Are a large % of the population apathetic or lazy? Yes! But to categorize everyone in that when there's a lot of grey between the candidates is soooo arrogant.

My whole point is that the polling and research show that "undecided voters" aren't even clear where they THEMSELVES stand on this scale you've created, let alone how the candidates fit on it. That's why most commentators think the term "underinformed" is more apt than "undecided".

Further, no two candidates have ever been so fundamentally separate and distinct in vision than Obama and Romney now are.
08:33 AM on 10/06/12 
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luckykaruba
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I think we can all agree Scalia is an asshat and thinks we should go back 100 years and make sodomy and abortion illegal.
08:39 AM on 10/06/12 
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kyle is hk
The Goddamn Loveliest Melody
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My whole point is that the polling and research show that "undecided voters" aren't even clear where they THEMSELVES stand on this scale you've created, let alone how the candidates fit on it. That's why most commentators think the term "underinformed" is more apt than "undecided".

That research will show the majority are like that yes. I acknowledged that in my last post pretty much. But you can't say there's nobody who already knows they are a seven. There are plenty enough people like that. You see them all the time in places like Jersey. Its like you're saying everyone on the Mets sucks because the team sucks. But hey RA Dickey throws a mean knuckleball, and Wright can swing a bat!

Quote:
Further, no two candidates have ever been so fundamentally separate and distinct in vision than Obama and Romney now are.

They still arent polar opposites. (I almost said they arent Black and White but that wouldn't have worked as well...)
08:39 AM on 10/06/12 
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kyle is hk
The Goddamn Loveliest Melody
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I think we can all agree Scalia is an asshat and thinks we should go back 100 years and make sodomy and abortion illegal.

I disagree, I think he's more a shithead than an asshat.
08:43 AM on 10/06/12 
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GeeBee
Tertium Non Datur
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That research will show the majority are like that yes. I acknowledged that in my last post pretty much. But you can't say there's nobody who already knows they are a seven. There are plenty enough people like that. You see them all the time in places like Jersey. Its like you're saying everyone on the Mets sucks because the team sucks. But hey RA Dickey throws a mean knuckleball, and Wright can swing a bat!



They still arent polar opposites. (I almost said they arent Black and White but that wouldn't have worked as well...)

I'll agree with your first point - there MAY be such a thing as an undecided, though very informed voter. My personal judgement of that sliver of the so-called "undecideds" is that he/she is overanalyzing and needs to pick a side already.

As to whether they are "polar opposites" - I think it's fair to say that at least philosophically, they are. Policy-wise, it's probably up for debate.
09:15 AM on 10/06/12 
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spiffa0
Oh my God, it even has a watermark.
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There's been a lot of painting with broad strokes in here recently.
09:47 AM on 10/06/12 
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J.C.
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If they can't make a token effort every four years for a presidential election, they should stay home, then. It's not about making it a hobby. It's about making an informed decision.

If people were purchasing a car or a home, but were "apathetic" or "didn't have time" or "don't make a hobby out of" making an informed decision - you'd be all over them for being lazy and stupid. But for some reason they get a pass on the fucking election of their nation's president? Jesus Christ...

People consternate over a lot of things. You can dumb the election process down to it being akin to picking a car or a house, but the effects of choosing a President are not necessarily that tangible or clear. It's easy enough to predict that a home will provide you shelter, and it's easy enough to predict that a car will get you from point A to point B. What you will get in return for your vote is not so obvious. You don't get to attend an open house or test drive the implications of picking a President, you're relying on a large degree of hope in them. The choice for President is also a decision you've been confronted with, it's not something you've willingly chosen to undertake like the purchase of a house or car. What we have right now is a shitty economy. Some people have very specific concerns affecting their lives, and those concerns in life translate into concerns over policies. Unfortunately we don't have a debate in this country that deals in specifics, that delves into the minutia, so if you are going into this election with a narrow concern, it's probably not being addressed, at least not to an extent that would satisfy you. You feel like you're stuck having to pick between the status quo, which hasn't been very good for you, or making the change to a candidate who is effectively a Mystery Box allergic to details. We can make broad, overarching political points in here -- that's what 80% of this thread is -- but it is out of line to be personally insulting anyone in here, nevermind someone's family member, on the basis of those political generalizations, particularly when the truth is you're as uninformed about their circumstances as you believe they are about the issues.
09:47 AM on 10/06/12 
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Nuns On A Bus
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Could it be that bird man is what was holding us all together? A common enemy that unites us all watchmen style?

Because he's the hero AP.net deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
09:52 AM on 10/06/12 
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georgedcc
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Might as well make some more generalizations: There's no good reason to vote Republican in this election. So, undecideds deserve my ire.

There are plenty of informed and intelligent people who will be voting Republican in November. They just happen to disagree with you on some issues. Of the 60 Million or so people who will be voting Republican in a month, a lot of them will be very clever, very thoughtful people. Not many of them will be ignorant and stupid. I don't think it's anywhere near as black and white as you're saying.

I understand that you're aware it's a generalisation, but still it's not like we can seriously sum it up as Democrats = good, Republicans = bad.
09:59 AM on 10/06/12 
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Love As Arson
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Even my socialist friends say, "I mean, I hate what Obama's done, but it would be objectively worse to have a Romney presidency." At this point, in order to vote for republicans, one either has to be racist/xenophobic, homophobic or of a particular class background that was served very well by the republican economic policies. That said, I probably won't vote.
10:03 AM on 10/06/12 
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jawstheme
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Even my socialist friends say, "I mean, I hate what Obama's done, but it would be objectively worse to have a Romney presidency." At this point, in order to vote for republicans, one either has to be racist/xenophobic, homophobic or of a particular class background that was served very well by the republican economic policies. That said, I probably won't vote.

Or rich and just apathetic to the issues you mentioned. Edit: never mind you covered that with class background.
10:04 AM on 10/06/12 
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Love As Arson
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Just learned that Romney's first name is "Willard", not "Mitt". Don't know which is worse.
10:09 AM on 10/06/12 
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Love As Arson
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This is the first time I ever saw this:

Governor Romney announced that he would propose a “One Strike, You’re Ours” law for those convicted of preying on children using the Internet. Massachusetts Republican District Attorneys and Sheriffs support Governor Romney’s proposal for stiff mandatory jail time to be followed by lifetime tracking by Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) for first-time offenders: “As Governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney was a strong defender of children. He led the effort to put photos of the state’s most dangerous sex offenders on the Internet and made it easier to extend civil commitments for sex offenders. As a candidate for president, Governor Romney is once-again demonstrating strong leadership in protecting our children. His ‘One Strike, You’re Ours’ law is an important initiative to strengthen law enforcement and protect America’s sons and daughters. We are proud to stand alongside Governor Romney in his campaign for our nation’s highest office.
Sounds like big government. Unless the whole thing is privatized.
10:12 AM on 10/06/12 
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georgedcc
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Seosan
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I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but:

Obama issued blanket immunity to everyone and anyone who authorized, destroyed evidence of, or committed torture – shielding them not only from prosecutions, but from investigation. Even though the executive branch has no legal right to decide which laws are enforced or which crimes investigated, this has been the practice under Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder (as it was under Bush). Former detainees who have been released as innocent, and who have been victims of torture, have been barred by the administration from suing the Government.

I don't even know why I'm doing this.
 



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