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04:16 PM on 07/05/11 
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caveBEAR
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What about it? It's deplorable that cops harass anyone who is not doing anything illegal.

But discrimination, harassment, and isolation are not things that are exclusive to blacks. Or any minority for that matter.

True. They do, however, happen in a more institutionalized fashion to some races (such as African-Americans) more frequently than others. Do you agree with that?
04:37 PM on 07/05/11 
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birdman
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True. They do, however, happen in a more institutionalized fashion to some races (such as African-Americans) more frequently than others. Do you agree with that?

I absolutely agree with that. I am not trying to say that real racism isn't alive and well in the US. What I'm saying is that if you look for something hard enough, you'll find it. If you wake up everyone morning knowing that your black and people are going to judge you for that, then you are going to find that judgement whether it is there or not.

There are real, hateful, awful people in this world. Do we really need to put so much effort into lambasting anyone who calls someone a name, or makes an honest observation, or simply feels anxiety with other races? These people aren't hurting anyone.

My original point was that over sensitivity has cause the term "racist" to mean nothing. I still believe that.
04:54 PM on 07/05/11 
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caveBEAR
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I absolutely agree with that. I am not trying to say that real racism isn't alive and well in the US. What I'm saying is that if you look for something hard enough, you'll find it. If you wake up everyone morning knowing that your black and people are going to judge you for that, then you are going to find that judgement whether it is there or not.

There are real, hateful, awful people in this world. Do we really need to put so much effort into lambasting anyone who calls someone a name, or makes an honest observation, or simply feels anxiety with other races? These people aren't hurting anyone.

My original point was that over sensitivity has cause the term "racist" to mean nothing. I still believe that.

So you honestly feel that Love As Arson is simply;
insecure about being black.

You don't feel at all that there is institutionalized racism in this country that can make a person feel persecuted every day just because of their skin color? You honestly believe that they're just 'insecure'?
05:14 PM on 07/05/11 
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JamesBond
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I absolutely agree with that. I am not trying to say that real racism isn't alive and well in the US. What I'm saying is that if you look for something hard enough, you'll find it. If you wake up everyone morning knowing that your black and people are going to judge you for that, then you are going to find that judgement whether it is there or not.

There are real, hateful, awful people in this world. Do we really need to put so much effort into lambasting anyone who calls someone a name, or makes an honest observation, or simply feels anxiety with other races? These people aren't hurting anyone.

My original point was that over sensitivity has cause the term "racist" to mean nothing. I still believe that.

I see that you agree with your opponents that blacks are clearly treated worse than others by cops in America. I also see that no point you make will they ever agree with you on. Even if it's as simple as saying "the republicans have done a lot of good for the country." Even though it's vague as hell, none of them will agree with you there. Instead they will say "no, not compared to what the Democrats have." An argument must always be made. But that's the American way. Republicans started the war right now but are angry The Democrats aren't pulling back the troops. There will always be arguments when it comes to Americans.
I commend you for keeping it civil especially after all the name calling.
05:16 PM on 07/05/11 
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JamesBond
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Oh and he's not an insecure black man. He's an angry black man. Oh how rare.
05:24 PM on 07/05/11 
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loveisdead
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Oh and he's not an insecure black man. He's an angry black man. Oh how rare.

yep, i've had enough of you.
05:27 PM on 07/05/11 
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caveBEAR
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Always nice to see someone exit on a low point...
05:41 PM on 07/05/11 
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The Personist
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I won't. I'll let Dom respond himself; that will be more thoughtful than anything I could ever say on the subject anyway. But I can, however, respond to this little dribble of ad hominem nonsense:
You obviously aren't capable of having a reasonable conversation.

If name calling is such a horrible problem for you, then you obviously weren't taught any coping mechanisms growing up. I suggest you lighten up or you are going to be miserable for the rest of your life.

I am perfectly capable of having a reasonable conversation. I have done so time and again, even with people with whom I fundamentally disagree. On these boards, Simulcast comes to mind, since he and I couldn't be more different in our views of capitalism, and yet repeatedly we can converse about it without resorting to cheap jabs and glib remarks; I'd even go so far as to consider him my friend, at least insofar as our AP interactions are concerned. Similarly, I used to get into heated arguments with users about things like religion and yet now some of the people with whom I had the most serious disagreements are some of the users with whom I have the best relationships on here.

The problem is not a matter of coping, it's a matter of grasping the issues at stake, here. Name calling is completely different from the racism we are talking about. When I was in kindergarten, I picked my nose once and someone saw it and for the rest of the year (and it even bled over into first grade, a few people keeping it going as long as fifth or sixth grade) I had a pretty annoying nickname. At first I hated it, someone even made me cry. However, I wouldn't for a second think that my treatment was anywhere near that of someone who has to deal with the fact that people truly believe he is a priori inferior because of the color of his skin.
06:05 PM on 07/05/11 
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Love As Arson
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You are obviously a very intelligent person so when I say this I want to be clear that I am not trying to offend you. It sounds like you are insecure about being black. I say this because people with low self esteem or various insecurities tend to think that people are judging them when they really aren't.
I feel insecure, insofar as I often feel unsafe, wrongly harassed and subject to random acts of oppression. It isn't the perception I have of myself that is the problem, it is the case that I must adjust my behaviour giving the prevailing perception others have of me. That is what you cannot understand and it is precisely because of what I mentioned before. And I do not deny that police often abuse authorities against people that aren't minorities, I do think that the rate at which it occurs is higher for minorities and the encounters are harsher, e.g., I was placed in handcuffs for "walking on a known drug corner" or, as I know, the corner of my street. As for joking back with others, I refuse to do that because it legitimizes the racism of their jokes; it makes it acceptable to joke about lynching or black people getting their rights.
06:06 PM on 07/05/11 
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J.C.
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Oh and he's not an insecure black man. He's an angry black man. Oh how rare.

And you just felt the wrath of the angry white man.
06:33 PM on 07/05/11 
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Healthy Scratch
cowards only try it
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i think i understand birdman's point of view. its not that racism doesn't exist, or that it isnt a very real daily concern to minorities. its just that when someone is sensitive (i didn't say oversensitive, it IS warranted.) and on guard for such things, they unfortunately see racism in things that may not have anything to do with race from time to time. and when every issue is branded an example of racism, it can desensitize and dull the public when actual racist acts occur.

take the casey anthony trial as an example. was she likely guilty? yes. but the failures of the prosecution and the investigators to produce indisputable evidence is what led to the acquittal. but browse the trial thread in general (if you dare) and you see claims that 'they let her go because she's white', as if no white person is ever convicted of murder. it had nothing to do with race. but injecting that kind of thinking into the discussion is just absurd and detracts from actual racial injustices.
06:35 PM on 07/05/11 
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birdman
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So you honestly feel that Love As Arson is simply;


You don't feel at all that there is institutionalized racism in this country that can make a person feel persecuted every day just because of their skin color? You honestly believe that they're just 'insecure'?

insecure can sometimes imply shame, but that isn't what i meant here. I think that regardless of institutional racism, every individual has the choice to break through or to dwell. No one is going to help you overcome hardships, why would you let someone bring you further down?

You can either choose to let people's prejudice get the best of you, or you can move forward.

My grandfather survived the Holocaust, he passed away with a number on his arm at 81 years old. No one gave him a break, no one stopped short of calling him a kyke or a heeb, no one gave him a hand. Despite that, he made himself into the great man he was when he died. His parents had been killed, his family in America had changed their names so he couldn't find them, and he lived in a refugee home till he was 17.

He didn't feel sorry for himself, he didn't expect anyone else to either. I believe that is the reason that he was able to succeed. He laughed all the way to his deathbed as people continued to hate.

I would like to believe that he thought "hate all you want, I took what I wanted and didn't let anyone stop me"
06:43 PM on 07/05/11 
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KingsCrossing
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That quote was in reply to the comment "history is decided by the winners in every case." He was implying that if the Allied Powers won World War 2, then how do we know what was taught regarding Hitler was true...and he was clearly making a point about the comment he was replying to.

I don't believe that JamesBond thinks that Hitler was a good guy, he was just making a point. I understand nuance and don't get hysterical every time someone says something that isn't politically correct.

I would also like to point out that most of the people in this thread would paint all Republicans, Christians, and Southerners with the same brush. But when anyone dares turns that brush around on them they are racist, homophobic or bigoted.

Just thought I would mention that.

Nobody's getting hysterical. I'm also pretty lax when it comes to certain "politically sensitive" comments but that statement is simply inappropriate and disturbing regardless of context.
07:01 PM on 07/05/11 
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Echo Park
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yep, i've had enough of you.

You guys do know that JB is black, right? A black guy calling another black guy an angry black guy isn't racist.
But hey, six of one and half a dozen of the other.
07:06 PM on 07/05/11 
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Echo Park
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insecure can sometimes imply shame, but that isn't what i meant here. I think that regardless of institutional racism, every individual has the choice to break through or to dwell. No one is going to help you overcome hardships, why would you let someone bring you further down?

You can either choose to let people's prejudice get the best of you, or you can move forward.

My grandfather survived the Holocaust, he passed away with a number on his arm at 81 years old. No one gave him a break, no one stopped short of calling him a kyke or a heeb, no one gave him a hand. Despite that, he made himself into the great man he was when he died. His parents had been killed, his family in America had changed their names so he couldn't find them, and he lived in a refugee home till he was 17.

He didn't feel sorry for himself, he didn't expect anyone else to either. I believe that is the reason that he was able to succeed. He laughed all the way to his deathbed as people continued to hate.

I would like to believe that he thought "hate all you want, I took what I wanted and didn't let anyone stop me"

Quite a few of the great black guys I know are like your grandfather. To this day they will say their worst enemy is other black guys. Those same guys work wallstreet and graduated from my alma-mater, duke. Today they will never do anything for the so many black people that need their help the most because of the treatment they had. Quite frankly they shouldn't.

I would add that if the world, or just America in this case, wasn't so hateful and cruel people would be so much better off. Since I was 13 I saw no need to make fun of people or bring them down, but so many people do. And it's those people that do, that have so much hate, who struggle in the long run. Your grandfather got to see their struggle, that lucky SOB
 



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