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03:51 PM on 02/15/12 
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birdman
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In any event, I don't use words like the n-word or the f-word because I can't think of a situation where it is necessary to talk like that, not because I am afraid of offending people.

If I feel that strongly that I need to use a word like that to hurt somebody then that is a problem I have to deal with.
03:52 PM on 02/15/12 
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birdman
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And you sound like you hit people when you strongly disagree with them. Of course you're lesbian, of course.

All the lesbians I know are quite kind. I haven't heard of any epidemic involving violent lesbians, did I miss something?
03:59 PM on 02/15/12 
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birdman
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Lol EasySkankin probably thinks the Holocaust was justified.

I was at a friend's house a few years ago about to watch the season premier of Lost. There were a bunch of people there including my girlfriend at the time. Anyways, he tells me that there was this kid coming over that I had never met, and that he has very strong opinions regarding whether or not the Holocaust actually happened.

This surprised me because this group I was hanging out with consisted of relatively smart individuals so I couldn't understand why they would hang out with someone so stupid. Here is how that conversation went:

Friend: "The thing about Todd is, he doesn't believe the Holocaust happened."

Me: "Oh, so he didn't go to school or something?"

Friend: "No, he went to school."

Me: "Why are you telling me this? Do you think it is likely to come up tonight?"

Friend: "He has very strong opinions about it."

Me: "So he's dumb or something? Or is this the thing he does to get attention?"

Friend: "He's actually a really nice guy."

Me: "I don't care, I already don't like him."

My Girlfriend at the time: "You haven't even met him, don't judge."

Me: "I don't need to meet him, I'm just gonna go ahead and judge him."

My Girlfriend at the time: "That's sort of dick"

Me: "I'll sleep fine tonight"

The kid never came over, but WTF!!! I can't judge people like that?!?!
04:02 PM on 02/15/12 
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crackedthesky
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I wouldn't judge his entire person based on it, but it would leave a VERY bad first impression, and you know what they say about first impressions.
04:04 PM on 02/15/12 
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birdman
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But, you are missing a key component: It is not simply the power dynamic between you and me, for example, but between me, you and the societal racism that can be traced back to the founding of our country. Your formulation leaves a vacuum, whereas what I am proposing explains why it is that the power dynamic between you and I exists, how it is reinforced in the discursive norms that are considered acceptable and so on.


Well, the "hymie town" incident occurred before I was born and I was only six when Sharpton made his anti-semitic comments. If you are asking if I find those views repugnant, then yes; however, neither Sharpton, nor Jackson, hold any special place in my heart by virtue of the fact that they are "black leaders". In my mind, their political careers, while once progressive in a given the state of black America, have now degenerated into mere outgrowths of the DNC. By throwing their lot in with that mainstream political party, they've essentially given up any hope of substantively addressing the problems that afflict the black community. They forgot that it was Clinton who contributed most significantly to the expansion of the prison industrial complex with his tough-on-crime laws, that, in a system so built on anti-blackness, the parties that uphold that system cannot fundamentally redirect its priorities; anti-blackness, for the system and them is ontological, therefore that party is diametrically opposed to the visions of Sharpton and Jackson.

Ah, I've gone off on a tangent. That's my bad and what is worse is that we keep interrupting more relevant conversations are going on in this thread. Perhaps we should take this to the "Daily Racist Experiences" thread.

But before we do that, I feel the need to address anti-Semitism. And I do not want to engage in an oppression Olympics between blacks and Jews. As for antisemitism, it is a terrible ideology and should be rejected by any serious leftist. We should, however, take note of the fact that, after WWII and the Holocaust, Jews essentially became white; that is to say, the dominant culture subsumed them and they were conferred the benefits of white-skin privilege. They had to overcome a great deal and sacrifice many things that were once culturally significant, but they've done it.

Done. Quote me in the thread about racism, so we can stop derailing this thead.


Kind of skirts around the question, but whatever. As for the bolded, that is a pretty absurd statement considering Jews are still discriminated against all around the world. Maybe in the US Jews have succeeded, but why do you think that is? You would say it is because their skin is white. I say it's because they came here, educated themselves, busted their ass, and made a life for themselves. They didn't stand around complaining and blaming all of their problems on someone else.
04:05 PM on 02/15/12 
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Love As Arson
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My logic: if it doesn't have racist intentions and the user isn't using it to be racist then it can't be racist. And gay originally stood for happy, not homosexual so using it does not make you a homophobe.

Other logics on here: gay was originally for happiness but it was allowed to change to ONLY be homophobic and if you say it, you have to be homophobic. But yet, other words such as the N word can't be changed and even if someone isn't using it for racism it still makes them racist.

This isn't my experience but my friend's. He puts words into his own meaning and doesn't use words for the same reasoning some others do. Anyways, he was at burger king and he uses the N word to refer to his friends in a jokingly way as being lazy or dumb. He isn't referencing them to blacks, he is just referencing them to lazy people (sort of how some use the word 'gay' to describe something stupid). His food was ready and his friend was supposed to get it but he just remained sitting down so my friend got up and jokingly said "you're such a n*****" and he went to get the food. A black guy over heard him and asked him who he was calling the N word. My friend replied that he was calling his own friend that. The guy then asked him if he thinks it is funny to be racist. My friend replied "I use the word to describe lazy people such as my friends, if you want to think I meant black people when I obviously was not talking to a black person then it seems to me you're the racist one, accusing me of trying to label it as a race other than jokingly label it as my friend". The guy got mad at his remark and punched him and they are not allowed at burger king.

Quote:
As a Privileged Person®, it is natural that you would feel excluded and frustrated by the recent spate of Marginalised People "reclaiming" historically negative words to refer to themselves.
Not only do these Marginalised People™ kick up a great big ole stink by making it "politically incorrect" for Privileged People® to use these words - even going so far as to have some of them defined under 'hate crime' legislation! - they take the insult one step further and use them freely amongst themselves!

This is very perplexing and annoying for Privileged People®, who can only stand on the outside, gazing wistfully in, wishing it were a simpler time when it was totally okay for everyone to call women whores, Mexicans spics, Trans* folk trannies, gay men ******s and people of African descent the n-word.

After all, who do those Marginalised People™ think they are, taking ownership of language traditionally used to oppress them! That just isn't playing fair!

But take heart, because there is a way you can worm around this one - where there's Privilege®, there's always a way!

First of all, you must feign utter cluelessness about the ins & outs of reclaimation and behave as though you were under the impression that in these 'post race/sex/sexuality/gender/etc times' that we had all evolved into a new era where 'words don't mean anything' and it's totally okay for everyone to use offensive slurs and then... well: use them.

When a Marginalised Person™ calls you out on it, become indignant. Express confusion. Demand an explanation. Say that you just don't understand - if you people use those words to refer to each other, why can't I?!

You see, you're implying that they're being hypocritical. That if they are going to use abusive & oppressionist language aongst each other, they simply have to accept that they're employing a 'double standard' by preventing the Privileged® from using them.

What this enables you to ignore is the reality of the power dynamic involved. Language reclaimation is a means by which Marginalised People™ gain back some power they are traditionally denied by taking control of words used to demean and discriminate against them. When these words come from Privileged People®, there is a long and very serious negative history behind them that cannot be divorced from the words themselves. Thus, when Privileged People® employ these words, they are perpetuating that history and the psychology behind the word. They are exercising oppressive power that have become inherent to those words - a power Marginalised People™ seek to subvert and dismantle when they use them.

Pretend not to understand this. Just continue to imply hypocrisy and pout that it isn't fair.

It also ignores the fact that, from within Marginalised Groups™, discourses around abusive language are actually not simple and there are many divided and varied opinions on the subject. Treating Marginalised People™ like a hive mind is always a great way to further subtly insult them and since the point of this entire debacle is to come out with as many notches on your belt as possible, you want to make sure you slip in as many knocks below their belt as you can manage.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
04:09 PM on 02/15/12 
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sjb2k1
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thank you Dom!
04:10 PM on 02/15/12 
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live.
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So you're giving the intentions of beating someone up because they said a word that to them is not racist and wasn't intended to be racist but you have the high Jesus power to declare him racist because you know all of his feelings and intentions somehow.

If he's not racist then he's probably one of the most ignorant and insensitive people you've ever met.
04:35 PM on 02/15/12 
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Love As Arson
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Kind of skirts around the question, but whatever.
You wanted me to reject Sharpton and Jackson and I did/do. Their words were repugnant, even if your claims about them are false.

As for the bolded, that is a pretty absurd statement considering Jews are still discriminated against all around the world
I assumed we were speaking about the context in the US.

Maybe in the US Jews have succeeded, but why do you think that is? You would say it is because their skin is white.
Well, that makes it easier, yes. But, it was a confluence of things, notably the demonization of Nazis that took place after WW2.

I say it's because they came here, educated themselves, busted their ass, and made a life for themselves. They didn't stand around complaining and blaming all of their problems on someone else.
Man, all we did was build this country's wealth, fight in its wars - which is noteworthy due to the fact that the majority of blacks had no access to the GI bill - work jobs paying less than whites and so on. But, yes, you are right. It is the attitude of black people, not the systemic oppression that existed and continues to exist.

Sidenote: In some parts of the south, forms of slavery persisted up until after WW2.
04:58 PM on 02/15/12 
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chipdip18
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You wanted me to reject Sharpton and Jackson and I did/do. Their words were repugnant, even if your claims about them are false.


I assumed we were speaking about the context in the US.


Well, that makes it easier, yes. But, it was a confluence of things, notably the demonization of Nazis that took place after WW2.


Man, all we did was build this country's wealth, fight in its wars - which is noteworthy due to the fact that the majority of blacks had no access to the GI bill - work jobs paying less than whites and so on. But, yes, you are right. It is the attitude of black people, not the systemic oppression that existed and continues to exist.


Sidenote: In some parts of the south, forms of slavery persisted up until after WW2.

I applaud you man. This is our nation's biggest problem in regards to racism: thinking that it no longer exists.
05:01 PM on 02/15/12 
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Sidenote: In some parts of the south, forms of slavery persisted up until after WW2.

I'm sure you may already know this, but Mississippi didn't abolish slavery until 1995. I don't know when they stopped using slave labour, but it's kinda crazy that it was still legal to own a slave just over 15 years ago.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/...-the-13th.html
05:08 PM on 02/15/12 
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sjb2k1
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i remember attending a speech about racism once. the guy said something along these lines: in 1807, well we banned the importation of slaves, that's much better. in 1865, the slaves are freed, much better than 1807. 1898, plessy v ferguson, man things are even better than 1865. 1954 brown v. board of ed, man things are so much better now than 1898. 1964 civil rights act, man things are so much better than they were in 1954....and so on.

it baffles me that people think racism doesn't exist.
05:18 PM on 02/15/12 
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Love As Arson
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I'm sure you may already know this, but Mississippi didn't abolish slavery until 1995. I don't know when they stopped using slave labour, but it's kinda crazy that it was still legal to own a slave just over 15 years ago.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/...-the-13th.html
Everyone should watch this documentary:

Slavery By Another Name

Quote:
Blackmon’s incredibly researched and detailed book, for which he received the Pulitzer Prize, opened the eyes of many readers of the bestseller to a new, under-the-radar age of slavery that thrived in the South during the roughly 80 years from the end of the Civil War through the early days of World War II. It was a horrific system based on labor practices and laws that sentenced African Americans to forced labor for violating laws that criminalized their everyday behavior. Charges against them were often trumped up, and the convicted persons would be sentenced to work off the court fines paid off for them by the “kindly” white benefactors who just happened to be made aware of their cases, and stepped in to “help.” Eventually, a system developed where sheriffs, justices of the peace and other whites would sell the convicts among each other, resulting in a reemergence of human labor trafficking in the South. Any black person, usually a young black man, unlucky enough to be swept up into this system faced a life of not only brutally harsh working conditions, but also incredibly cruel punishments for any perceived breaking of his or her supposed “contract” with the white person (or white-owned business) who controlled the contract. Many convicts were not even officially recorded as having been arrested, and their “sentences” could be indefinitely prolonged by further bogus charges and debts, with the poor souls stuck in their nightmarish existences until, in many cases, they were simply worked to death. Not only individuals were complicit in this “Age of Neoslavery” — which could be argued to have even been worse than the age of antebellum slavery, if that’s imaginable. Businesses and even entire states were involved in the sleazy, shadowy business of leasing questionably convicted people out for labor. And while this primarily went on in the South, the North, aside from a few exceptional individuals who worked to try to bring some convictions against the offenders, generally felt that whatever was going on was the South’s business to take care of.
http://www.channelguidemagblog.com/i...rican-history/


i remember attending a speech about racism once. the guy said something along these lines: in 1807, well we banned the importation of slaves, that's much better. in 1865, the slaves are freed, much better than 1807. 1898, plessy v ferguson, man things are even better than 1865. 1954 brown v. board of ed, man things are so much better now than 1898. 1964 civil rights act, man things are so much better than they were in 1954....and so on.

it baffles me that people think racism doesn't exist.
My favorite years were:

1831: Nat Turner's rebellion
1856: Pottawatomie Massacre
05:22 PM on 02/15/12 
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sjb2k1
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Everyone should watch this documentary:

Slavery By Another Name


http://www.channelguidemagblog.com/i...rican-history/



My favorite years were:

1831: Nat Turner's rebellion
1856: Pottawatomie Massacre
i truly wonder if things would have gone completely different had Nat Turner been successful. like, no civil war, no jim crow, etc.
05:37 PM on 02/15/12 
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Love As Arson
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i truly wonder if things would have gone completely different had Nat Turner been successful. like, no civil war, no jim crow, etc.
Probably not. Look at Haiti. They are still being punished for being the only successful slave rebellion to have founded a nation. Then again, if they'd organized the entire slave population, there probably would have been a lot of violence, but it probably would have put an end to the southern aristocracy a lot sooner.
 



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