[EasySkankin]

Originally Posted by loveisdead

Yeah, why?

Those "profits" are being held onto the same reason banks held onto reserves after the crisis: they don't see macro growth in the future and are preparing for a hit. Calling them profits is entirely misleading.

[<*)))><]

Originally Posted by loveisdead

When did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm well aware small business felt the worst of the recession and are being left behind in the recovery.

Small businesses would benefit well from better consumer spending. Perhaps lining our workers' pockets with a little more cash they could spend in their local communities with help that.

You can't guarantee that if someone made a few extra dollars they'd be willing to spend more at the small business then buy more at the bigger chain.

[CollectiveConfusion]

Originally Posted by forfrosne

I'm not going to fall for a strawman attack. I'm not saying that minimum wage is why small businesses are hurting, I'm saying that increasing it would hurt small businesses and that a decrease in minimum wage would mean that they would be able to hire more people, lowering unemployment.

That wasn't what I was getting at... my point is that you're dumbing down everyone's arguments into one factor. There's a lot more involved in this issue than you're trying to make it seem like. It's not as simple as "wage increase = fire workers." And again, you're naive if you think the local deli would hire more workers to do the same job if the minimum wage decreased.

Also, the whole, entire reason we're talking about the minimum wage is because people can't live on it. Lowering it could decrease unemployment, sure, but then we'd just have more poor people who can't survive on their wages. And then we'd have to pay out more government assistance, public housing, etc. Obama's thinking is that if we pay higher wages across the board everybody will live better (including small business owners).

[<*)))><]

Originally Posted by nowFace

At my work we have been raising the prices ever since I started two and a half years ago. For a small smoothie it costs roughly four dollars. My store is a million dollar store. We make a lot of money on a good day. It's not even summer time yet too. In the summer we can easily make five grand on a good day. I have only received three raises while working for said company. All about 10 to 15 cent raises. I barely make nine dollars an hour. My company has raised their prices so many times that I think it's bullshit I haven't had a better raise.

Is making a smoothie worth $10 an hour?

[EasySkankin]

Originally Posted by CollectiveConfusion

You sound pretty naive if you think paying their employees minimum wage is the reason small businesses are hurting. You're stuck staring at the trees on this one.

If you think minimum wage isn't an exacerbate during recession and low growth periods, you need to read more.

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by loveisdead

What do you mean? You'd rather the rich be really rich and the rest be poorer because of it? I don't get that.

This is going to start a whole new discussion.

No, the exact opposite. Here's how I see it. If you increase the minimum wage, businesses will either be able to pay for it (Cool, but that's unlikely for small businesses which are already being hit hard) or they can't afford to hire as many workers, so they cut numbers. They could raise prices too but that just exacerbates the problem in another way. Thus you end up with fewer workers but the workers who stay on earn more, right? Higher wages. Each worker has more money in their pocket than they did before, however there are fewer workers in general.

Or, you keep minimum the wage or lower it. This means that companies do not have to pay each worker as much and their costs are decreased. This frees up money for the business for them to either invest in the economy, in their own business, or indeed in hiring more workers. Each worker will earn less individually however more people from the country will be in work, more people will be earning something rather than nothing and there's potential for further growth from there.

[loveisdead]

Originally Posted by EasySkankin

Those "profits" are being held onto the same reason banks held onto reserves after the crisis: they don't see macro growth in the future and are preparing for a hit. Calling them profits is entirely misleading.

The article was written pre fiscal cliff. I think that's mostly what they were talking about (though I guess the same can be said now for the sequester). Large companies have been very profitable. Not sure there's a way to argue against that.

[CollectiveConfusion]

Originally Posted by EasySkankin

If you think minimum wage isn't an exacerbate during recession and low growth periods, you need to read more.

That's not what I was saying.

[loveisdead]

Originally Posted by forfrosne

No, the exact opposite. Here's how I see it. If you increase the minimum wage, businesses can't afford to hire as many workers so they cut numbers. Thus you end up with fewer workers but the workers who stay on earn more, right? Higher wages. Each worker has more money in their pocket than they did before, however there are fewer workers in general.

Or, you keep minimum the wage or lower it. This means that companies do not have to pay each worker as much and their costs are decreased. This frees up money for the business for them to either invest in the economy, in their own business, or indeed in hiring more workers. Each worker will earn less individually however more people from the country will be in work, more people will be earning something rather than nothing and there's potential for further growth from there.

Yeah, we're basically gonna argue Austrian economics against Keynesian economics. Which I don't think was the goal when Kyle created this thread.
You believe that, I say more money in workers pockets creates more consumer spending and that's the biggest driver of economic growth. We'll talk in circles.

I'm sorry I rolled my eyes at you before. That wasn't nice of me.

[nowFace]

Originally Posted by <*)))><

Is making a smoothie worth $10 an hour?

Making a smoothie no. Detail cleaning bathrooms, back of house, lobby, front line. Going on catered events: Which means driving at least thirty miles away from the store where I had to make said smoothies. All 230 of them, and dealing with bullshit people who try to tell me I'm taking advantage of them with our high prices like I'm the one who enforces them. Also Doing dishes that when after a rush can cause some serious back problems. Taking out very heavy trash bins for trash runs. Stocking fruit which at my store is a lot. Usually twenty-twenty five boxes before 7am. So yeah all of that is worth $10.00 an hour. I bust my ass.

[EasySkankin]

Originally Posted by CollectiveConfusion

That's not what I was saying.

We're in a low growth period. Mom and pop startups are risky already by definition, and during times like these yes minimum wage hurts them.

Also, can we abandon the term "small business"? Some of the most profitable and influential firms in the world for into that category.

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by loveisdead

Yeah, we're basically gonna argue Austrian economics against Keynesian economics. Which I don't think was the goal when Kyle created this thread.
You believe that, I say more money in workers pockets creates more consumer spending and that's the biggest driver of economic growth. We'll talk in circles.

A respectable opinion.

Originally Posted by loveisdead

I'm sorry I rolled my eyes at you before. That wasn't nice of me.

Honestly I had more of a problem with the eye-rolling than anything else you said haha, I have a bit of a problem with condescension. Sorry for calling you almost-sickeningly naive.

[loveisdead]

Originally Posted by forfrosne

A respectable opinion.



Honestly I had more of a problem with the eye-rolling than anything else you said haha, I have a bit of a problem with condescension. Sorry for calling you almost-sickeningly naive.

I'm normally not like that. My apology was sincere.

[EasySkankin]

Originally Posted by loveisdead

The article was written pre fiscal cliff. I think that's mostly what they were talking about (though I guess the same can be said now for the sequester). Large companies have been very profitable. Not sure there's a way to argue against that.

It's not really profit if its going into capital funds. If you're working hard but you save an assload of cash because you think you'll lose your job, you aren't actually profiting.

[CollectiveConfusion]

Originally Posted by EasySkankin

We're in a low growth period. Mom and pop startups are risky already by definition, and during times like these yes minimum wage hurts them.

Also, can we abandon the term "small business"? Some of the most profitable and influential firms in the world for into that category.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you (or the other guy I originally quoted) but there's a lot more to it than that. The minimum wage has positive and negative effects on every business.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm going to side with the worker- more money in his pocket leads to more money pumped into the economy.