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10:48 AM on 06/17/14
Kelly Doherty
@_kellydoherty for the lolz
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To be fair, I think Lyman knows more about how a festival should be booked and run than you or the original woman who spoke out about this. Lyman is clearly not sexist, so for what other reason besides the fact that it's a senseless way to book a festival would he have against adding more women to the bill?
Did you read the article? I'm sure that Mr Lyman is very good at running a festival and making money. What I'm discussing is why he could possibly put his capitalist machine to the side for half a second and maybe consider doing something for the sake of helping social change.

Also lol at the people who think Warped Tour books the best bands. BrokNcyde 4 lyf.
10:49 AM on 06/17/14
Kelly Doherty
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That's a completely different argument though. It's one thing to argue there's not enough female bands in the scene due to discrimination reasons, but it's a whole nother thing to argue that a festival should be booking more women simply because they're women. There's no starting point there. It's a known fact that the scene is male-dominant. And THAT'S what needs to change before you take it to festivals.
Do you think women are worse musicians than men?
10:50 AM on 06/17/14
George_mm
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I think I used this exact line on a previous podcast, but the amount of hate I get thrown my way for bringing these issues up is 1-1,000,000th of what women in the music scene (and world at large) deal with on a day to day basis, and yes, it's ugly and brings out a lot of bullshit in the comments -- but it's something that needs to be talked about. Needs to be discussed. And I got multiple messages last night from readers saying that because we've addressed issues like sexism or using the word "retard" or "bitch" publically -- that they have rethought how they were living their lives before and feel like better people for having learned/changed.

I have absolutely, for the better, changed the way I say or use words such as "gay" or "retard" or "bitch" since I have started following this site and am very thankful this site helped me change the way I use them.
10:50 AM on 06/17/14
OldSchoolReason
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Sleeper Agent have released one of my favorite albums of the year. This topic is a slippery slope and I think that is all I can really say on the matter.
10:52 AM on 06/17/14
CluckyB
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That's a completely different argument though. It's one thing to argue there's not enough female bands in the scene due to discrimination reasons, but it's a whole nother thing to argue that a festival should be booking more women simply because they're women. There's no starting point there. It's a known fact that the scene is male-dominant. And THAT'S what needs to change before you take it to festivals.

But the festivals are part of the scene. They can't fix the problem by themselves, but the problem also can't be fixed without the festivals. As Kelly said in the article

Quote:
The vast amount of young girls who turn up to the Warped Tour are never going to translate their passion for music into creating a living out of it, if they are constantly shown by the biggest event on their calendar that they are to never be anything more than a groupie or a fangirl.
10:52 AM on 06/17/14
Kyle Huntington
GIVEN TO THE WILD
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Can't wait to read this when I'm back at my computer.
10:52 AM on 06/17/14
rawesome
Listen to Dave Hause pls
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Since when did the Warped Tour, of all things, become representative of what is happening in "the scene" these days? At this point, that festival represents approximately 0% of what I or anyone I know that's actively involved in punk music actually listens to or considers vital, important music.

Meanwhile, smaller festivals and shows are featuring awesome bands like Hop Along or Cayetana or Candy Hearts or Swearin'. Maybe the problem is pretending that the Warped Tour is still relevant and not just a gross neon cash machine designed to make money for old guys and skeezy tattooed dudes in tank tops and flat-billed hats.
10:53 AM on 06/17/14
SkyGrowsBigger
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To make this claim you need to be able to show that the bands currently on the tour are selected based on merit+ability+profitability. The countless bands that have everyone go "who?" makes this a hard argument to make with a straight face.

I think it's disappointing you believe the quality would decline if great female bands were added instead the pretty mediocre lineup of "relatively unknown" male bands that currently dominate the bottom half of the list this year.
My point was that those bands that make people go "who?" are absolutely not selected for any reason to do with profitability and based on interviews I've seen/read with Kevin, he personally evaluates those up and comers based on who he believes are talented and have the potential for big ticket sales one day (merit and ability).

As for the decline in quality, I'm not saying there would intrinsically be a decline because of the gender of the members. What I'm saying is that as soon as Kevin stops selecting these bands based on quality (or merit and ability as mentioned above) and focuses on gender, it's common sense that overall quality would decrease. The way to maintain quality is to have the highest quality bands playing, regardless or gender. As soon as you focus on anything else, overall quality will naturally decline.
10:54 AM on 06/17/14
Jason Tate
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I think it has less to do with the fact that they're men and more to do with what people like and who the promoters believe in and believe deserve that shot. You're trying to claim that Lyman is purposely not giving female acts that opportunity because they're not men?
That entire argument was brought up in the last article: If a band with female in it does poorly and doesn't draw, it's because there was a girl in it. If these countless bands with guys in them don't draw, then it's never "because there was a man in the band" that they didn't draw. We know for a fact that a bunch of bands on Warped Tour have small sets. Did you see Finch's recent live-streamed set on Warped? There are more people at your local Starbucks right now then were viewing them play. What you've done is looked at the results and formed the narrative to fit. Your argument here contains a variety of other assumptions I find faulty, starting with: "what people like" is subjective and to claim people don't like bands with women in them is a non-starter.

Also, I never once made the claim you just associated directly to me making.
10:57 AM on 06/17/14
Jason Tate
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I have absolutely, for the better, changed the way I say or use words such as "gay" or "retard" or "bitch" since I have started following this site and am very thankful this site helped me change the way I use them.
And every now and again when I get messages like this ... it reminds me exactly why I do it. So, thanks!
10:57 AM on 06/17/14
fran.182
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Great article. Will respond with my thoughts later since I'm away from a computer at the moment.

Wanted to share this, however, since it's related: Neko Case responding to Playboy's comment --> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5380242
IM NOT A FUCKING "WOMAN IN MUSIC", IM A FUCKING MUSICIAN IN MUSIC!
All ok with that first reaction, but what comes next is a shame. Bitter and rude. She could express the same without the "motherfuckers" and such... I agree with her, just not with the tone, since it was an involuntary offense. I hate that kind of language and it is more than avoidable through writing...

On a related note, apparently, it is ok to distinguish between white people music and black people music, which I find abominable.
10:57 AM on 06/17/14
duritzfan13
Order inspires disorder
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Do you think women are worse musicians than men?
No, I don't. Why? When did I even imply that? I'm a musician, I know a lot of people. My girlfriend is an extremely talented musician, I have plenty of friends that are female that can absolutely shred a solo or kill it behind the drums. A good band is a good band. A good musician is a good musician, regardless of gender. I respect that, and I respect your point of view.. however I just don't feel that festivals are a good starting point for this argument. How can we yell at festival promoters to book more female acts if the scene is clearly male-dominant. Is THAT an issue? Sure. If there were 20% more successful girl bands in the scene, and still only 6% female musicians on the tour, THEN maybe we can point fingers and wonder why they're being excluded. But there's no sense in asking festivals to reach a quota on females if there are simply no more female acts they're interested in.
10:57 AM on 06/17/14
SkyGrowsBigger
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So lets assume you're right and he really is just picking the "best" bands. Does that mean you're okay with the state of the scene if only 6% of the "best" punk rock musicians are female?
Absolutely not. I'd absolutely support any progress in the scene to cultivate young female talent and be able to say that today 20% of the musicians in this scene are female instead of 6%. But I don't think the answer is excluding better male bands to fill a female quota. I think the answer lies in changing the overall perception of female punk musicians, but certainly not any of these "affirmative action" suggestions.
10:57 AM on 06/17/14
AeroIce
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I think this entire issue has been blown so far out of proportion today. Is anyone actually accusing Kevin Lyman or anyone at the Warped Tour of being sexist? Is Kevin going out of his way to exclude bands with female members? Of course not. From my understanding of the article/interview, Kevin is simply choosing the BEST bands to include on his tour. In this case, the "best" is likely defined as a combination of bands that will pull crowds and sell tickets as well as talented younger artists that he believe have the potential to draw those crowds one day. Notice that none of those criteria involve gender in any way, shape, or form.

But that's the problem, right? Kelly, it seems that what you're really looking for is more in the vein of "affirmative action." The only actionable suggestion you provided in your write up is to include more up and comers with females in the group in lieu of similar-sized bands comprised solely of males. So, you're seriously suggesting that Kevin throw out the criteria mentioned above, where he is subjectively selecting artists based on merit/ability to contribute to the profitability of the festival and replace that with a quota based purely on the gender of the artists? Would female musicians even WANT to be included on a tour like this simply because they fulfill that quota?

This entire arguments seems moot to me as to your other point, there are simply LESS female musicians in this scene. Is it 50%? Hell no. I'd even venture to guess that if you gathered all the musicians from the last 25 shows I've been to, assumed 4 members in the band for a total of 100 people, there would be less than 10 in that group that are female. So how far off are we really from that 6%? If you're expecting anything close to 50% or even 30% for that matter I think it would be wise to stop arguing in vague ideologies and start looking at the real, specific demographics of this scene. I think I speak for many when I say that I don't want the quality of the Warped Tour to decline even further because Kevin is inviting bands with female members simply to reach some arbitrary quota and to exclude better male-only artists that deserve a fair and EQUAL shot at being successful.
This.
10:59 AM on 06/17/14
AP_Punk
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I mentioned this in the aforementioned article and I still think it's worth taking into consideration. Kevin Lyman, and all those who wield the influence he does in shaping this scene, does have a responsibility to promote diversity and inclusivity, but let's not overlook this aspect:

While there's plenty of awesome all-female/feminist-charged rock bands out there, I get the impression that quite a few of them consciously avoid participating in Warped Tour, for ethical/DIY reasons (in favor of participating in festivals/tours that aren't so blatantly corporate sponsored/watered down/commercialized, etc). I'm pretty sure a band like Perfect Pussy has no interest in playing Warped Tour (maybe I'm wrong though) and perhaps the same can be said for an act like War on Women (it definitely can actually).

These articles and the commentary raise good points (about the Warped Tour and the scene overall), and I completely back it all. But there's a tendency for more sensible/ethically/socially-conscious bands to avoid Warped* ... and maybe we should all follow suit.

*Propagandhi, RVIVR, The Lawrence Arms, Dillinger Four, even The Gaslight Anthem early on lost desire to partake in the Tour

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